The Case of the Tiki Rooms: For Real This Time

[00:00:15] Welcome to The Supreme Resort, Land v. World, a podcast about Disneyland and Walt Disney World in which is the Supreme Resort. Each episode we will discuss and explore each resort ride by ride, land by land, park by park to determine which is better. I'm your host Jimmy and thank you for joining me on this quest to help the greater good of humanity answer this long elusive question, which is better, Disneyland or Walt Disney World? Joining me as always is Disneyland Dan.

[00:00:44] Oh, that's my name now. That's that's that's one time you stumped me. Hi. Hello. And Entertainment Eric. That's that's me. There's no cheese involved in this entertainment. Let me tell you. Charles Entertainment Eric. There is a Charles. Yes. I'm jiving Jimmy. I don't know. Jimmy's. Charles.

[00:01:12] So, everybody, this is an exciting episode. It's a long awaited one. But before we get there, I just wanted everybody to know that once you listen to this, it'll already have happened. But we're going to go celebrate Dan's birthday at Disneyland this coming weekend. Very excited. Yeah, we're gonna have a nice time. Yeah, I keep telling everybody about the trip. I say, you know, my friends turning 50 and you do it like as as you do when you turn 50 you go to Disneyland.

[00:01:34] Yeah, that's that's exactly what everyone does. That's right. So very excited. We're gonna have a nice little dinner and then Dan and I are gonna have a old fashioned watch party. Yeah. And let me tell you, I'm excited to be turning 50. Good. I can see it in your eyes. Yeah, there's nothing weird about it. Yeah. His collection of eyes in the background. Yeah.

[00:02:00] Anyway, so excited about that. And I'm going back with the family in December. So I would kind of hold off on some of the new things to see. But Dan, let's talk about all the new things there are to see real quick. There's the new Soarin. There is the new Soarin. There's the new Soarin. Where you can soar over America. America. And there's the new Mandalorian overlay of Millennium Falcon. Yeah, yeah. Soarin over Grogu. Soarin over Grogu. There's more to do. And it feels more like you are doing things.

[00:02:29] And then there is also the Bluey Show. The Bluey Show. I've seen it several times. Yep. And what else? There's a lot of construction. What I've learned is that you need to make room for the children to dance. Oh, is that it? I've been talking to you about that. Yeah. I see. Yeah. You talked to. Sir, please back off. What else? What else is there? I feel like there's more new things other than just construction. Oh, the. Oh, no, that's what's the same.

[00:02:59] Yeah, that's it. They don't have electric vehicles yet at the. The thing. The driving thing. Oh, I actually encountered a new dance frosted tip while I was there recently. Oh. If your child is afraid of something in the line for it. Mm-hmm. It's very helpful if you yell to them about how not scary the thing is. Oh, is that it? Mm-hmm. It comes right up. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:26] And we are full, we fully endorse anyone who goes to the parks. Yeah. And. You have our approval. I forget what it was. What is it? We endorse it. Whatever it is, we endorse it. I think it's really good. Anything. Whatever it is. You name it. But what else is there? Name it right now. We endorse it. Is there, what else, there's something else new. I feel like there's a lot, but I guess I'm wrong.

[00:03:54] There's, oh, there's Haunted Mansion Holiday. I know how much we love that. Mm-hmm. Is it already open? Oh, it's been open for quite some time. Actually, you know what? I've, we've been neglectful as a podcast because it's been, we're not, we're past August and we have not yet said Merry Christmas. That's right. Oh, Merry Christmas. You're right, buddy. We're not celebrating properly. Um. What else is there? Uh, there, okay.

[00:04:22] There's the little droid things in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Galaxy's Edge. There's a rope drop thing's done. I'm not rope drop. The park hoppers thing's done. The park hopper thing is done. That's fun. Um. But you still need to make a reservation despite the fact that you don't have to go to that park. Yes. That part's very important. Um, uh, the Matterhorn is still sinking into the ground. Mm-hmm. Uh, what else they are working on? There's gotta be. A lot of construction. Walt and, and Lincoln now fight each other.

[00:04:52] Oh, is that right? Do they rotate? Yeah. No, they, they're on the same stage now. Okay. And they debate. They start with debating each other and then eventually it turns into like a rock'em sock'em robot. And the only thing they can agree on is hating the Jews. Right. Oh, sorry. Well. Sorry. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it's gonna be an interesting episode guys. So, uh, let's get into it.

[00:05:18] So we've had a lot of episodes of late that are sort of, you know, we've been kind of skirting around stuff, you know, kind of getting more content, but also it's like, you know, we haven't done it's a small world yet because it's a big show and we feel an obligation to make sure that we do it justice. Mm-hmm. And then we've had some, you know, some, let's call it accoutrement or peripheral episodes and Benihana versus this and, um, the hotels and the dream suites and that what else you do in the castle, that kind of thing.

[00:05:47] So it was time for us to get back to a true versus episode of a, you know, beloved attraction. And Eric joined us a couple of years ago, I think before he was a full time on the show and we did a Tiki Room kind of a tease. Uh, this is true. Yes. And we've, you know, Eric's kind of been patiently putting up with us over the years before we officially do the Tiki Room episode. Sometimes less patiently. I have, I have. You'd spoken out several times.

[00:06:17] Stormed out of several recordings. And, and I think unlike it's a small world, which is like a really big topic and I think is going to at least be a two-parter. I think this week we can probably just, we don't have a whole lot of recording time. Listener, you probably are looking for a shorter episode. Yeah. And I think we can probably knock this out and pretty thoroughly in a pretty short amount of time. Yeah. Well, and you've already talked about it. We have a little bit. We talked about some, some of the, the, the music and some of the Tiki culture in that

[00:06:47] episode. And then, um, we kind of just decided that Disneyland is better. Yeah. Um, and I felt like you, you skirted over a few important issues. Yeah. So we're going to use this opportunity to go through some of the more details and some of those issues and some of the history and, you know, kind of, we'll talk a little bit about the, the, the Rachmaninoff. Is it Rachmaninoff? It was a, no. Uh, Offenbach. Offenbach. But there's a whole section for those of you who have not, who've only been going to the parks for the last decade or so. Do I need to research Rachmaninoff now?

[00:07:16] Rachmaninoff would have been probably less relaxing. Uh, you stay off of my Bach. I'm I'll stay off of your Bach. That's right. That's all I'm going to say. But anyway, there's a whole section of the show. So many accents. There's a whole section of the show that is no longer in the show that I'm sure we'll get into as well. Uh, but I'm the host. I have no idea what they're going to talk about because that's the format. So you're welcome, Eric. And the long awaited episode. This is called the case of the Tiki rooms for real this time land the world.

[00:07:46] So Dan is going to argue for Disneyland's Tiki room and Eric will argue for it for whatever reason. Disney worlds cause he doesn't like to win these shows. This has been clear of late. Please, please. Can I do the Disney world one? I want to talk about Disney world or Tiki room under new management's my favorite show. So anyway, we're going to give you that chance, Eric. Um, okay.

[00:08:12] So, uh, if Dan says something about the Disneyland, Oh gee, Tiki room, I enjoy, you will hear this sound. They're great. Okay. Thurl Ravenscroft was the voice of, uh, Tony, the tiger. Mm-hmm. He's also the voice of this. Tanger. Tanger. I had a couple of, was it a couple in there? Tanger. And the queue. Uh, yeah. Uh, he is the, uh, the German one. He's Fritz. Yeah. He's Fritz.

[00:08:41] And then he's also the main singing bust voice you hear on the haunted mansion. Right. Grim grinning ghosts, et cetera, et cetera. And that is his face as well. The running joke, the running joke between us. So that is his face as well. Running joke between us is that when Tangeroa says from my limbs, let new life fall. Frosted flakes come pouring out. Oh yes.

[00:09:03] And, uh, also the Thurl Ravenscroft was portrayed quite brilliantly by, um, the stuttery British guy who's in all the rom-coms from the nineties. Uh, Hugh Grant likes the blowjobs. Uh, Hugh Grant plays him in the movie, the Frosted Dose, the, the Pop Tarts movie. Uh, the Jerry Seinfeld. It's quite delightful. It's farcical, but fun. It's a family show. We're going to call them blow Jays on the show.

[00:09:30] Let's, uh, Eric's taking a timestamp. Yeah. Okay. So, uh, if Eric says something about the lesser version of the Tiki Room in Florida that I like. Who's going to win? You will hear this sound. I'm just a caveman. Your world frightens and confuses me.

[00:09:54] The lovely Phil Hartman in the unfrozen caveman lawyer sketches from Saturday Night Live back in the day. Delightful. Eric, why did you choose that sound? Well, because Phil Hartman played one of the, uh, the birds in the pre-show. In your favorite version of the Tiki Room. In my favorite version of the Tiki Room. In my favorite version of the Tiki Room. Let's get a slice, let's get a slice of the castle and go watch the improved Tiki Room. In the slice of the castle. Because it was a birthday cake at the time when Eric went out to the first time.

[00:10:23] I'll take a giant gumdrop, please. His favorite version of the castle of Tiki. Uh, and stay in the unthemed, um, supply closet that it was at the time. That's right. Uh, okay. So, um, that is that. So let's, let's start with an opening statement. Dan, would you please give your opening statement? Absolutely.

[00:10:50] Hawaii was born of volcanic action millions of years ago. Still active today, these volcanoes produce the rich soil which supports Hawaii's lush vegetation. It's rugged landscape is a reminder of the island's explosive origin. It's always springtime in Hawaii with a rainbow of colors continually in bloom. Visitors can appreciate the beauty of the islands anytime. And there's something else that they can enjoy too. Pineapple. Pineapple. The flavor of Hawaii.

[00:11:19] King Kamehameha welcomes visitors to Honolulu, to Diamond Head, and Waikiki Beach to enjoy the sun, the surf, and the sand. Surfing, once reserved only for royalty, is one of the most challenging sports in the world. Perhaps one of the most dangerous, but certainly one of the most exciting. The flavor of Hawaii is also found in the exotic dances of many Polynesian cultures now native to these lands.

[00:11:46] But the flavor of Hawaii is best enjoyed in pineapples. Grown year-round and harvested by hand, it's transported to the Dole Cannery, the largest pineapple cannery in the world. The fruit is out of its shell and into the can within minutes. After shell and core are removed, the golden cylinders are inspected and trimmed. Skilled hands short-sort choices slices. At a luau, hukilau, or just a family picnic, the flavor of Hawaii is refreshing in many forms.

[00:12:16] And Hawaiians really know how to enjoy it. Once so rare only kings could afford it, pineapple is now known as the king of fruits. Today, it is the symbol of hospitality around the world. The flavor of Hawaii, the beauty of Hawaii, the hospitality of Hawaii can all be summed up in one word. Aloha. Very well done. That was, of course, the opening statement of the Tiki Room itself. It was, yes.

[00:12:43] They had a pineapple video in which they showed you how native people of Hawaii make canned pineapples for all of us. That's true. Because that's clearly the only way to enjoy pineapple is in a can. Yes. With heavy syrup. So much syrup. So, and also, you'd mentioned in the opening statement about pineapples being the sign of hospitality. Right.

[00:13:13] That's a big deal. I learned the hard way that if you have upside down pineapples, that means you're welcoming other couples to join you and your spouse. Yes. Well, it can mean a couple of things from what I understand. I think if it's, it can also mean that you are no longer welcome. Oh. But it is also from what I understand a common swingers symbol. That sounds like a mixed message, a classic. Sure is.

[00:13:42] You're no longer welcome, but please come in. And Dahl also makes mixed fruits in cans that you could enjoy. Also with heavy syrup. Also with heavy syrup. I like how the cherries have this weird off red color to them. Yeah, I can't. I can't. I think I only like the peaches and the pineapples. The pears are okay. Pears are okay. Yeah. Yeah. The pears, I think, are the worst part. Yeah. The cherries are weird. I like the cherries. Anyhow, I don't think that's available anymore.

[00:14:13] Yeah. Okay. So Eric, did you do your opening statement? No, you did not. Eric, please. You know, I was a little too excited. I do want to thank you guys for finally giving me the chance to talk about this. Absolutely. It's been long overdue. Yep. I'm not sure why I joined the show after my first episode was me sitting here and you explaining to me why I was wrong without allowing me to say anything. Yeah. At least that's how I remember it. I don't think anything's changed.

[00:14:40] I've kind of felt bad after getting to know you a little bit more because I, I know that you, you enjoy, you know, doing kind of the deep research behind these kinds of things. And I, and that, I feel like I've missed out on an opportunity because I like to, you know, take those facts and, and the sort of idea of like, okay, well, this is what the thing was and then apply like a bigger lens to it.

[00:15:08] And, you know, I mean, I don't know that that, that would be the whole episode, but that's sort of, well, I mean, it's all relevant. It's all contextual and that's part of the history. Yeah. That works out really well in, in some situations. I mean, yeah, I think that's, that's, I think our best episodes are where that, that kind of works together in a way. Like, um, I don't know.

[00:15:33] I mean, I think one, one of the biggest questions that I get come back to when thinking about the seeking room, cause let's face it, it probably, it's probably going to stay open, but conceptually, conceptually, it shouldn't be long for this world and the world that we live in currently. It would not have been built today. I'm not saying close it. I'm just saying there are some clear problems there, but I think the problems don't come from nowhere.

[00:15:59] And I think that it probably, it was built at a different time with a different set of values. Um, and I think that, uh, it, it's the, the question for me becomes, okay, it's not authentic, but does that matter? What is authentic authenticity in a world where we have, well, inside of a theme park inside of a world where theme parks exist.

[00:16:28] And like, you can have a themed like apartment building or a themed McDonald's. Well, do you think before you answer, do you think you have, are you, do you have anything to prepare that you can kind of elaborate on that? Cause I'm kind of curious. Uh, well, I don't know, Eric, have you heard of the, uh, there's, there was an exposition in Paris and like the. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So it sounds like the answer is yes. Um, yeah. Um, but before you do.

[00:16:55] It's common knowledge and maybe it's related, but the new Encanto stuff and the, and the Coco stuff, like how is that any different when you're, maybe this is kind of stepping on what you're about to say, but how is that any different in theme that's correct slash incorrect? I mean, it's, it's, that's actually a really good question.

[00:17:17] And I think that what we're arriving at is that, um, earlier on when colonialism was just seen as this is just how the world is, um, before the internet, before, you know, critical theory or anything like that, we were kind of assigning a role to these cultures and saying, okay, this is, I mean, I don't know, Eric, if you know this, but they had like human

[00:17:42] zoos back to like, to show like, well, not even that it's like, these are the weird backwards people of this village. Um, meanwhile, the people from the village had like, they had electricity at their, their home. Um, yeah. Um, but I think now there, we are, it's, it's a postmodern lens. So we have learned from sort of how ugly that can be.

[00:18:12] And we're also inviting the people who actually have a voice in those cultures to be a part of the, um, the, the designing of the thing or the telling of the story. Um, so I'm dying to understand how, how a Paris exposition could be related to the Tiki room in any way. Uh, well, Eric, do you have, do you have, what do you know about this?

[00:18:39] Well, I mean, even it's interesting cause Dan, you bring up kind of how the lens has changed on how we even view other cultures. This has been going on for even longer than this, this Paris exposition. I mean, we've, as, as Europe kind of fell in love with, with the Pacific, uh, if this was, I mean, this is happening for a hundred years earlier, even, I guess, probably even further.

[00:19:08] Um, you know, a lot of these early, earlier explorers are heading through the area and people like, um, like cook head through and just kind of blend together all of these different mythologies and all these different islands that they're exploring and coming back with, Hey, look at all these cool stories we've got. He's the one that didn't like Peter Pan. Is that, is that how we're going to tie this into Disney? Yeah. And then he lost his hand and they changed his name cause they just, you know, they thought it was funnier that way. Yeah. Both were named James.

[00:19:41] Uh, yeah, I, I think, I think what you're talking about is sort of like there's it's, it's, there's a, there was a running joke I had with a friend of mine where it's like, okay, well looking at a, looking at a globe, it's like, okay, where, what country is Polynesia? And then someone who actually knows goes, it's here. And they like, they, they wave their hand around like a, a, a huge, huge swath of the Pacific ocean. Right.

[00:20:11] Uh, we're, we're bringing people back or people are bringing back stories. They're writing books with part of the picture. There are painters that are coming back and, and creating art based on multiple islands that they visited and they're bringing together temples that don't match. And, and, you know, carvings and art from the islands that don't match and actual artifacts that don't match and saying this Polynesia, the Pacific islands. Polynesia.

[00:20:39] It's a place you can go to kind of. It sounds like what they're doing with the Indiana Jones in Florida. Yeah. Well, yeah. But I, again, I think that we have a Joe Rohde now who is, is at least saying like, okay, can we at least add like five CCs of authenticity to this, please? Some people come to these parks and want to see a plaque. Right. An explanation written on it. Right.

[00:21:08] But, and I, but I think that what we're talking about is like, it's in thinking about it. I, the, the idea of Polynesia as a place is almost like, uh, like white Wakanda where, where it's like, it's like, you're the only, you're the only white person there. And you're the most interesting person in the world to these people. Okay. They're very fascinated by your boring ass job.

[00:21:30] And like it, it, it, this, this exoticism and there's a connection to Orientalism, which is a concept that some writer wrote at some time ago that I don't have in front of me, but I will. Um, it's this idea of like, we're going to compare by, by, by the way.

[00:21:54] By finding these quote backwards peoples, we can almost measure how much further we have come along as members of the imperialist core. And is it exploitive? Yes. But the intent isn't always that the effect certainly is, but the intent is more just like, look, look at how far we can travel. Look at, look, look at, look at where we can move to. Look at these people who will find us interesting.

[00:22:24] Look at these strange exotic sounds that we can put into our music. Now it's, it's, um, it's, it's an interesting approach to the world that I, that certainly existed up until this time. But in Paris, it kind of becomes a, a, a fashionable trendy thing that we do. How is it different from the spice trade in the far East and whatnot?

[00:22:49] It's not, it's not except that instead of it being spices that we're trading, it's now cultures, people. Yeah. Um, I mean the spice trade was still, there was some overlap because you had, um, traders. It was, it was, it was, it was on a smaller scale, I think, because you had traders that would meet and converge and talk about, well, where I live, this is what's going on. And this is what's going on here. And have you heard about this? And have you tried that?

[00:23:17] And then the traders then go back to their home. Then they say there's, here's what I've learned. Here's what I've heard in this situation though. It's more like, look on display is a set of pagodas from Indonesia. And by the way, they don't have pagodas. That's China. Another place that we've been, but it didn't matter because it became, I mean, it didn't,

[00:23:43] it didn't matter again in huge quotes because yeah, because the idea wasn't here's this authentic thing. It's here's this concept of this thing that you might have imagined had you not known that this thing already existed. If what I mean is like going back to the Tiki room, a successful Tiki room experience, I

[00:24:09] think would be, this is how I imagined the concept when I'm told about it without having seen it. So at the time in the fifties, when this was being developed, people couldn't get to Hawaii as easily as they can now. That's true. It's a way of imagineering slash Walt Disney saying, you know, basically this is kind of what it is. There's tropical birds and there's, they have totems and Tiki's and you know, it's just,

[00:24:35] it's a, it's a snapshot of the area for people who couldn't otherwise see it. Right. But where, where I'm veering, you're correct, but where I'm veering a little bit doing that thing that I do, which might be irritating. I don't know. Um, I think it's interesting is that this also through the translation, we also forget that this is an actual authentic place, an actual authentic experience with actual authentic

[00:25:03] people with personalities and lives and interests and all of that. How is it different than Epcot? It's not. Epcot is I think the same thing. France is not just the Eiffel tower and some perfume shops and wine. I would argue it's the exact same phenomenon, but with Epcot it's cranked up in, I think, self-awareness and scale and scope. But I, I, I would even argue that, you know, the futurism of tomorrowland and a future world

[00:25:32] comes from this very impulse. Hmm. Yeah. And I mean, Jimmy, if you, if, if, if you would indulge us for just a little bit here, I mean, I'm sure I could, I could explain some of what, what we're kind of getting at here with, uh, with the Paris exposition, um, and kind of explain how, you know, really similar it is in some ways to what, what we get in modern theme parks. But Dan, is there, is there anything else you wanted to, to hit before we, you know, you

[00:26:00] know, that Jimmy might want to know beforehand or our listeners, I suppose there are people who are listening to this. Yeah. Call in eight, five, six. Let us know. Um, no, I, I, these, this is stuff I've been tossing around for a while. Um, and you know, wherever you go with it, I'm happy to jump in and then we'll get into the history and right. Right. Right. Of course. I've been waiting forever for this. Well, this is, I mean, to be fair, this is kind of how we get the Tiki garden. This is how we get that. Okay. So this is the history in a way.

[00:26:30] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is how we get the pineapple video because like the exotic dances of many Polynesian cultures now native to these lands or these islands is like a huge flattening mechanism because native is not necessarily the case because there's once Hawaii becomes popularized a lot of people move from other, other countries, other islands.

[00:26:56] But to this mindset, it's just, eh, it's Polynesia. That's a broader thing. We don't need to get overly philosophical. What makes one native? Because native Americans didn't start here. Native Hawaiians didn't start in Hawaii. It was just a volcanic island. And then is it just the first people who got there are the natives? I mean, that's, that is, I'm not, that's not something I'm prepared to answer. No, I'm not. That's an answer to a logical. Right.

[00:27:25] It's a hypothetical philosophical question. What makes one native? I think there's a point. I think there's a point where we bump up against the three white guys on a podcast wall. And I think that's it. All right. Paris Exposition. Paris Exposition. Well, okay. Well, yeah, let's, let's talk about this for a little bit. Completely out of our, our heads. As we, as we love to do. Talk about things.

[00:27:52] Let's see, Dan, is there anything you, you would recommend we, we, you know, I kick it off with. I could, I could talk through, but I guess maybe before you, you give me a recommendation. Um, I, I have to say, uh, Jimmy, there's, there's a lot of, a lot of stuff out there, um, about this. This is world's fairs are pretty well documented because they're such a huge deal, but this was Paris in 1889 and it was extremely well documented.

[00:28:20] As featured in the American adventure. Hmm. Yes, you are correct. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. Uh, but, but there's a, there's a super, there's the, uh, the Eric of, uh, of documents out there. A, a very large volume from Alfred Picard, who, uh, Captain the Enterprise. No relation. Yes. Yes. That. Yeah. Well, he was a few years before him because remember Star Trek's in the future. That's right. Unlike Star Wars. Also no relationship to Professor X.

[00:28:50] Right. Fair enough. Different. He wasn't actually British in the comics. Right. He was in upstate New York. Mm hmm. Same thing. Yes. Okay. Uh, but yeah, he, he wrote a, a very, uh, a very large volume about all of the, uh, the, the exhibits at the fair and really kind of a, a, how, you know, how to find your way around what, what was in each location.

[00:29:16] I'm not going to quote a ton from, from his stuff because it's, it's extremely detailed and the entire purpose is, um, let's document what exists. So we might refer back to it if we, if, you know, something comes up, but, uh, When it was, I think that's the one that was published by the people who did the fair themselves. Right. Right. It's basically a guidebook. Yeah. They had some skin in the game. It would be like, or was it just, well, I mean there, that's another, what, what is

[00:29:45] and what isn't propaganda is totally up for grabs. I think when, once we get into this, but, um, I would say it's not, not propaganda. You know, I, I, in, I think I would say it's probably propaganda and at the same level that like a guide map at Disneyland when they still had those. So let me rephrase the question. Was it selling the fair or was it explaining the fair? It was explaining selling the fair actually happened after the fact.

[00:30:14] Cause wouldn't you, Dan, when you consider a meal, not to be more, more of propaganda. Uh, again, I, to me, I think it, that there's a fine line because explaining and selling could end up becoming the same action. Right. I suppose. Yeah. So Jimmy, Emile Monod wrote, uh, wrote a four volume tome about the fair afterward. That was more explanations of what was there instead of just factual. This is in this, this pavilion area.

[00:30:44] Um, so it explains a lot more about, um, you know, it's a period account cause it came out the year after the fair ended and there were more like the fair kind of resurrected itself for a few years in different forms. But, um, but like really, if we want to get into like what was there, there was a recreated Egyptian street with donkeys.

[00:31:08] Um, there was a display of the jab of the Javanis Kampong, which is a sort of gum on, I think. Uh, and called Debussy, who I say the name wrong every time. Um, he was so transfixed by this and he went back over and over again. I don't know if you know this, but in Gamalan music, they have a, uh, scale system that I think is five notes, which is very.

[00:31:37] Unique. Unique. It sounds, I'm going to use giant air quotes here. It sounds oriental, right? It's that's, that's, that's where we get that sound that we associate, you know, with. Um, and he went on to, uh, write something called Pagodes. Um, and this is Debussy. Debussy. Yeah. Who I, to be fair, wrote some incredibly beautiful music, but he didn't realize at the time that

[00:32:07] what he thought was this authentic, uh, thing was actually like a Taco Bell version. Of Gamalan music because they didn't want to make it to the, the, the Javanese group. Didn't want to make it too complicated. Cause again, on some level, they are also selling their culture to some degree to say like, okay, this matters. This you can relate to. We understand this is new. We understand this is interesting.

[00:32:34] I don't think they understood the incredible power of white people wanting to take things over. I think he also reminded me the Muppets appropriated it. And I think that's, that's one of the interesting points is that there are a lot of folks that were considered native savages who were like, okay, well, um, I don't know. I don't think these Western people can handle our music.

[00:33:03] From Disney, Disney related fact here. Um, and then, you know, we'll get back to the main crux. So, uh, the Eiffel tower was built for the world's fair in 1889. Sure was that I forget what the quote was, but basically it's an eyesore and everybody hates it. And now you can't think of Paris without affiliating with the Eiffel tower. And similarly Disneyland Paris opened, you know, 30 years ago, whatever it was, which everyone thought was an eyesore was an eyesore awful.

[00:33:33] It's awful. And now, you know, I don't, obviously it's not associated with Paris, but it's the most popular tourist attraction in Europe. Right. And people who grew up with it, it's just part of the, part of the landscape. Anyway, back to the world's fair. Well, and also I think another thing that's missing from this is Buffalo Bill was there. So like in terms of downtown Disney. Yeah. Also in the, um, uh, also in, uh, sounds of the lamps.

[00:34:01] Um, I almost didn't get there. Uh, he was there, he was a big draw. So like Americans were also kind of doing the exotic sizing of their own culture at this fair, which is nuts. And so Dan, I'm sorry. I, I, it was a passing statement, but at Disney village in Disneyland Paris is a Buffalo bills dinner show. Do you think that's why? I think absolutely.

[00:34:29] That's why he was a big deal in Europe because he, he mythologized his own existence in ways that were, you know, super fascinating. And this is actually another lane we could get into is, is exotic sizing or mythologizing identity itself, which started to become popularized here. And, but Beethoven did it. Um, and I think that, so we have Buffalo Bill taking things that are too interesting to not be true.

[00:34:58] So to speak, Mark Twain did it. Uh, Anton LaVey later did it. David Bowie, who we have a podcast about, did it. Um, this, the, what I'm getting at is this is all a thing that echoes out from this energy that became concentrated at this one event. And, and again, I mean, I teased it earlier. They had a human zoos, which we, they were still a thing, but, um, they had a, what they

[00:35:25] called the village Negre, uh, which had about 400 people from the French colonies, um, displayed basically in, uh, in displays of showing like what we imagined their home was like. The French famously conquered several countries in Africa. Yes. Yes. And they, they were putting them on display like trophies.

[00:35:50] Um, in, and one, a single East jeweler who was on display is quoted as saying, we were very humiliated to be exhibited this way and huts like savages in single. We have large buildings, railroad stations, railroads. We liked them with electricity. Um, but at this, at this exposition, which again, I'm not, I'm not trying to paint it as like entirely bad or entirely evil, but this is also what was happening there.

[00:36:20] Eric, I keep stepping on you. I'm sorry. And this is what, this is the episode you've been waiting for. I know it's, it's okay, but Hey, let's go back to, I mean, you brought up the, the Egyptian street. Yeah. Uh, you actually brought up the Egyptian street. We all brought it up. Yeah. I didn't. Jimmy was trying to figure out how this has anything to do with the Tiki room. Oh, well, yeah. Don't worry. It'll, it makes a lot of sense. Uh, when you, when you think about it. So start thinking, um, Emil, Emil Monad wrote all of the, these descriptions of the,

[00:36:49] the areas, but it was, um, he, his patrons, the ones who asked him to write a four volume, um, description of the fair, uh, were, um, uh, were also involved in creating the fair. So, and the French government. So it's, it's, there's a little bit of, uh, of propaganda there, but anyway, the, uh, the

[00:37:13] Egyptian bazaar was a reconstructed Cairo street that had, um, it had shops, it had cafes, uh, recreations of houses, uh, crafts. People were working and selling goods, musicians, food, drink, uh, actual residents of Egypt working there. Just like I've got. Carpet weavers, artisans, and even Jimmy, would you believe this?

[00:37:42] 100 small white donkeys. No, I wouldn't. Did they have the pyramids there? Uh, no, but they had a minaret. Which is? Uh, a small mineral. Think of the, uh, think of the Russian capital though. One of the onion shaped tower things. Man. Right? Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, let's see. And yeah, if this was a really popular area, uh, exhibitors, it was so popular that they wanted to keep it open later.

[00:38:12] So exhibitors had to pay for their own electric lamps. So 170 lamps were brought in. I guess some of the, some of them were probably not all electric, but, um, yeah, they brought in a whole bunch of nighttime illumination so it could stay open after dark because people wanted to be there. Does this not sound like the Egyptian pavilion that doesn't exist in world showcase?

[00:38:37] I mean, a minaret I'm seeing it's a puppet on strings. Oh, I'm totally wrong then. Oh, sorry. That's a marionette. Yes. Okay. And Okio was a marionette bringing it back to Disney. Right. Um, well, and bringing it back to Disney, this, this was also this fair in itself and the world's fairs in general, um, were kind of the template of theme parks in, in general.

[00:39:03] Um, and at this one, we just happen to have a lot of cultures on display in ways that are uncomfortable and weird. So what you're suggesting is that the world's fair was a themed environments of different places around the world. Yes. Right. Yes. That's where I think that's where we're getting at here. Um, so, and go ahead. I just to do some, some backing up here.

[00:39:28] Um, I mean, Walt Disney famously said that Epcot part of it anyway, is going to be a permanent world's fair. Right. And, um, I'm sorry. World showcase. All right. There we go. Um, I mentioned the book Orientalism by said or side, I think it's said, uh, I just want to be clear. It was originally the, the, the writing was built around the middle East and Asia. Um, and I'm kind of stretching it to this.

[00:39:56] However, uh, Paul Lyon in his American Pacificism, uh, idea said that the actual, um, the, sorry, uh, actual already published adaptation of say it for Oceania, the Pacific as a stepping stones virtual versus cultural limits. So basically he ended up saying he ended up critiquing the masculine U S imagination

[00:40:23] of Oceania as a, as a fictional place that also kind of exists. Um, what I'm getting to there is that this is, this becomes frontier land. This becomes the adventure land. It's becomes Tiki room. This, this impulse to, um, take these real things, narrativize them, turn them into a

[00:40:46] sort of inverse nostalgia for a feeling that you may never have is something that starts to really develop. Is that not main street USA? That is main street USA. That's all of it is what I'm getting at. And I, and I, and I think part of it here, why this lands in the Tiki room is that this is the most distilled expression of this thing.

[00:41:13] It, and it, it's doing this thing so well that we don't even notice that it's doing this thing. It's just these singing birds. So the simple hypothesis is that the Paris world expedition, exposition, whatever it's called is the parent of all theme parks. I think it's fair to say that. And I think that when we, is it the first one that did it or the first one we have documentation on?

[00:41:42] It's the first one that did it at this level, um, with this much intentionality. And it also echoes out to where we want to get, which is, uh, in 1893 in Chicago at the Columbian exposition. Uh, there was, uh, white city versus mid midway, midway pleasaance. The ranking made, uh, they had a department of ethnology for scientific cover.

[00:42:10] Um, but it ended up just becoming another display of quote, savage races. Um, in the Chicago Tribune. Walt Disney's father worked at that world fair. This is true. He did. Yeah. He helped build it. So, so presumably Walt would have, was that before Walt's time? Yes. That was 1893. Walt was 1901. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Okay. But I mean, mate, who knows?

[00:42:38] Maybe, maybe, maybe his, maybe his dad's sperm felt something. I don't know. Or maybe pictures or he explained what it was all about. Yeah. Yeah. What's that is an interesting dude. Uh, yeah. Joe Jackson school parenting. Um, uh, the Chicago Tribune talked about it. They said that the midway let visitors descend the spiral of evolution to its animalistic origins at this display. Um, all right.

[00:43:07] Well, I don't want to let you go too far into, into a different exposition. Right. Because there's still a lot of a different, uh, the first exposition we're talking about. Oh, please. Please go for it. Yeah. I mean, come on, Dan. I mean, you might as well finish the talking about the exposition and then get onto the tiki room. I mean, obviously. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, this might end up being a two parter. Um, well, do you, okay. Do you, I mean, do you want to finish talking? I don't want to. Let's let's. No, no, let's no. I don't mean the fair.

[00:43:35] I think that the tiki room, we kind of got into this. So I think maybe we finished this up and then we can, we can tie it back. We can, we can retie it back to the tiki room, you know, at when we start this again or at the end or both. Okay. Well, let me, let me just give Jimmy a quick, uh, and the listeners a quick run through the rest of the fair.

[00:44:01] There's, there's some stuff I wanted to talk about with regarding music that, uh, is also obviously a big part of the tiki room. Yeah. But also fits in with the, uh, the, the idea that really this is where our modern theme parks kind of started. Oh, funny. Sorry. Before you go. Well, funny thing that about this is often Bach actually wrote operas that did this very thing that we're talking about.

[00:44:30] He wasn't at this fair, but often Bach, uh, did, um, let me see what era is it? You mean rock, Bonenoff, rock, Bonenoff. Yes. Um, off on a rock. He, he, um, so the often Bach from the tiki room was from, uh, an opera. It was called the bar carol.

[00:44:53] Um, but earlier before this fair in 1855, he wrote something called Bata clan. Um, it was fake. There was a fake in the, in the opera, there was a fake Chinese empire. Shay, you know, war and, uh, conspirators speak and they invented gibberish and it was supposed

[00:45:17] to sound Chinese, but in fact it was not, it was a sort of a satire of French culture, but in so doing, it was also, you know, they were basically doing, and I'm going to say this very lightly, very, very delicately.

[00:45:38] They were doing ching chong language because that's just what it sounded like to them. Anyway, I just wanted to loop that in before we, we, we finished here because it's fun. It's, it's interesting that he makes an appearance in the original version of the tiki room later. True. And so anyway, Eric. You're talking about Offenbach? Offenbach. Offenbach. It was Offenbach. All right.

[00:46:06] Was, was Fritz the bird at the world's fair? In spirit. Okay. Uh, so other, other areas after you, you get off of your white donkey ride, uh, you could visit Tunisia, North Africa. Uh, well, I mean, it was pretty, a fairly similar area. Uh, we, we've, let's see, there was an area that reconstructed, uh, 44 different types of dwellings from around the world.

[00:46:33] Uh, this was Charles Garnier's, um, he was an architect. He built a collection of these types of homes. So he was showing off architecture from around the world, uh, from, uh, prehistoric Egypt to a Syria, Greece, Rome, Asia, Africa, and European traditions. Uh, they, he had people build, uh, furniture for the insides.

[00:46:59] Uh, some, some people apparently thought that the accuracy was, uh, not, not necessarily the best and that, uh, Garnier filled the gaps of the historical record by just kind of making up things in between filling and missing links of, of architecture to connect from old houses to new houses. Isn't he the one that does the fructise? Yes. Yes. Um, that was one of those steps that people were very like, wait a second, that, uh, that

[00:47:29] doesn't seem right. Um, but Hey, you know what? Uh, that could be, that could be the state inserting its thoughts into, um, into Monad's account there. Uh, but then let's see, we've already talked about the, uh, the, the pavilions where, uh, where, where folks were just kind of hanging out, demonstrating how backwards their countries

[00:47:54] were, uh, but definitely not quite the same sort of thing, uh, was Tahiti. So this wasn't, Dan, you mentioned the Javanese village. Tahiti came before that. Okay. Um, and he as a, as a country, uh, as a, as an exhibit, it was at a, at the world's fair at the world, at the, the exposition. Yes. Uh, so. World's fair is easier for me to say. There you go. Say world's fair. Okay. World's fair. 1889.

[00:48:23] Uh, they brought in lots of photographs and objects from Tahiti. They brought in models of their houses. And this is all put together by, by folks from Tahiti. So another exhibit that's kind of saying, Hey, look at, look at what we got. Uh, they brought in instruments. Is it a, a, a, a terrace of sorts like a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a terrace. A Tahitian terrace. Well, according to the, the, the plans, let's see, let me check, uh, Picard's account here.

[00:48:53] This time it is Captain Picard. Start eight, 1889. Yes. Um. Make it so. Weirdly enough, the world kind of did respond with make it so. No, because they got, they got a tape. They got a taste of this sweet, sweet exoticism at this fair. And they were like, Hey, this is a fun thing to play with. Let's keep playing with it. Um.

[00:49:17] Well, if you've ever been to Honolulu, it feels like a stereotype of the Hawaiian culture. Right. With the Japanese flair. When I think, I think in some ways it had to, in order to appease the people who are like, I'm going to go there and I'm going to see this. Exactly. And then if they didn't see it, it was like, why is Hawaii broken? Well, and even here, this is a place they thinking about the Pacific, you, you, they've

[00:49:45] already been set up with these famous paintings and written accounts that say, Hey, you're getting there, they're, they've got boats, they've got little canoes. They go around between islands in canoes. So you're going to have to see that and check out this coffee stuff that they seem to like. Well, I'm getting back, getting back to the Offenbach thing as a phenomenon, phenomenological

[00:50:12] experience in the show, in the Tiki room show, Offenbach. Even that number has nothing to do with anything exotic or Hawaiian, but the vibe works. It feels like an ocean breeze. So why not? It feels good. There's birds. Why not? Hey, worked for Martin Denny. Oh, that's somebody, you know, I don't want to get off track here.

[00:50:41] Well, I mean, there's, there's a ton of music that one could get into if one. Right. Well, speaking of music there, there has been a lot, an awful lot written about the music at the, at the world's fair here, because in, in some ways you could describe it as an early soundscape because all of these, these markets, all of these vendors, all of these places to eat and drink, they all had music playing.

[00:51:11] They all had live music going. And some of it was, was big performances. For instance, there was a very large choir of 1200 to 1300 performers that were singing French music. So honoring France and its musical traditions. Uh, so this is a, just a giant stage show trying to say, look at France. And it's very similar to what we do at the American adventure in Epcot. Look at America.

[00:51:41] All French music, including the Gary Busey. Gary, Gary Busey. Gary Busey's music. Um, Eric, when you were saying that I thought about how sometimes, especially when there's this, this cacophony of, in a good way of different sounds and actions and activity and music, and some of it is maybe not familiar.

[00:52:06] It can blend to become like almost a, a new style of music in itself, which is possibly where exotic. The ideas of exotic comes from, cause I know like Martin Denny, for example, he, um, he was just playing less Baxter music. With like a good jazzy flair. And then like birds. Pretending they're birds. Yeah. Well, well, you know, the story behind that, right?

[00:52:35] There was a bunch of birds that were just like singing in the background. And he initially was like bothered by it. And then at another performance, when he did his band did that same piece of music, quiet village, I think it was, um, an audience member who was there for the previous performance was like, why didn't you have the birds? And then that became a thing that they did.

[00:53:02] It was just that that became part of the, the tapestry of Martin Denny's music. And it wasn't planned. Martin Denny wasn't at the world's fair in France. No, he was not. Okay. No, no, he wasn't. Yeah. He couldn't, he was stuck on a boat. They, but they, they got lost on the way or something. Was there Hawaiian music at the fair? Is that what you were talking about with that, uh, uh, the Javanese gamelan? Yeah. Javanese is Javanese.

[00:53:29] I'm not, I'm not trying to be a jerk. No, I, but that's, that's what you were. That's what Dan was talking about earlier that Debussy was so. That kind of evolved into the stereotype of Hawaiian music. No, I think it was more like this. I think we're not entirely at Hawaiian music yet because it was just exotic music in general. That was exotic. Cause it was different from. Right. Instruments that were used to in Western Europe. Right.

[00:53:59] You know, it's, it's like, you know, in. I think about like when the synthesizer was invented and, and everyone was like, oh, I'm going to put a Moog on everything I do. Um, it just became a flavor that people wanted to, I think, I think understanding the, how the creativity could work there. It's a flavor that I think everyone rightfully wanted to play with, but I don't think that they were.

[00:54:26] I don't think that they were concerned about playing with it correctly because I don't think they understood that correct existed because again, they are presented as these weird backwards people. So we're actually doing them a favor by applying a Western notation to, for example, Gamalan music, which is entirely based on just as far as I understand it, it's entirely based on just, okay, this is how, this is how this song goes.

[00:54:54] And they're like, okay, can you write it down? Like, um, I mean, I give you numbers or something. Yeah. No, the answer is no. The answer is no. But if you're too dumb to catch on, I mean that when I was learning to do Gamalan stuff at SDSU, it's funny because the, any notation that does exist, exists entirely because they

[00:55:19] figured out that Westerners were too dumb to just learn the songs. So here are some numbers. It's what we do for our kids. Oh, nice. But yeah, I mean, like Dan's saying it, there, it could have been regarded as a cacophony, but really as you're walking around, you're going to hear music from even, even like Eastern Europe.

[00:55:41] So Hungarian, Romanian, um, North African, uh, Moroccan it's Vietnamese. Let's see. Uh, there are a few others that are really Russian music. It's what kind of fits in with the theme park setting. And what fits in with this, this blend of styles is just a whole bunch of, you know, smaller performers just playing music.

[00:56:08] So yes, there were these big exhibition portions, like having a whole bunch of people do a trip, a tribute to France. And there were a few other countries that did that, but the, the big thing that made this sound scape was just musicians playing maybe a couple instruments and singing something in, in an area that was basically designed to make you feel like you were in a market

[00:56:34] in Morocco to make you feel like you were in Egypt. It's just, it's there to, you're just describing Epcot for me. Yeah, that's there. There we go. Showcase. Yeah, that's it. And, and again, anything can be exotic to someone who's never experienced it before. Right. And if there's no one, if there's no one there to explain, okay, well, here's the history of this, of this instrument.

[00:56:59] We put this because we feel like it evokes the spirits and this is important to us. And it's very, we know it doesn't actually invoke the spirits. I know I see the look in your eyes as, as I said that traveler. And I can tell that you think that I'm a backwards person because I just said that, but actually I know it doesn't actually do that. But part of our culture is that it does do that. And if we remove that, it ceases to be the thing.

[00:57:24] Like all of these things, all of these micro layers of actual translation from actual authenticity to the perception of phenomenal logical authenticity, which is just, I don't know. It feels right. It's this, this, this is again, how we ultimately get to the Tiki room to adventure land.

[00:57:51] And I would say to space mountain to, uh, all of it. But again, the Tiki room is bearing that weight because it does it in such a concentrated way. So are you, are you suggesting that at the world's fair in France, that dads reluctantly begrudgingly went in there and had like board looks on their faces and awkwardly saying along or didn't, but they had belly dancers. So, oh, the dads were way into that.

[00:58:22] Well, funny that you mentioned that because we live in a time that has a different perception of masculinity and labor and, uh, what is and isn't acceptable. So I think that, I mean, I, I, I, I get, I take the joke and, but at the same time, it is

[00:58:44] a real thing because it, at that time, it wasn't considered a good, rugged, masculine trait to sit there and actively frown at the thing that is being presented to you. It would have been to engage and have curiosity and want to explore. Well, even today, some cultures, men hold hands. They do. And we, they know who they are. I don't mean.

[00:59:18] Heteroset, cis. Right. It's normal. Yes. In some cultures. Yes. Right. Um, but yeah, this, this, you know, the Tiki room dads do to me, the Tiki room dads are when the, the concept of white Wakanda starts to break down and they start to feel that like, Oh, this actually is a fantasy. Everyone's looking at me. Do I sing along? Do I have to stand up? How, how loud do I, and then suddenly it's over.

[00:59:49] I don't want my kid to think I'm gay. Right. So what else? I'm starting to get it, but what else in the Paris world's fair before we get to the show? Mm-hmm. Uh, I mean, I, I could go into silly detail about every single, uh, every single part of the exhibit, but. With all due respect, what else is new? Yeah.

[01:00:17] No, I, I didn't intend to do that. I just. Well, it sounds to me. Yeah. That. That a, a 19th century Paris fair basically invented the idea of packaging other cultures as entertainment and everything from Hawaiian tourism music to tiki bars, to the actual enchanted tiki room is a direct descendant of it. Yeah. I think that's, that's. You can draw a line. That's kind of what we're trying to get at. I think. Yeah. Wasn't there something similar in Paris? What do you mean?

[01:00:46] Like a world's fair kind of thing. We've just talked about it. Oh, we did? No, sorry. In San Francisco. My apologies. Wait. San Francisco. Wasn't there something similar? Uh, yeah. Yeah. And so we had the, so after this, this had an impact. I talked a little bit about Chicago. They did their thing. Um, uh, that was more.

[01:01:07] And before I get to San Francisco, the Chicago one was very much the people who were inclined to see the undercurrent of what was happening, like the sort of dangerous possibilities behind what was happening. They were definitely starting to say some things of like, um, hold on this. This can go somewhere bad. Who's they? Uh, for example, uh, Frederick Douglass.

[01:01:36] Um, when they, they left out the, the, the people of Haiti and he wrote a speech in protest where he said, Haiti is black and we have not yet forgiven Haiti for being black or forgiven the almighty for making her black. Um, and another there's, uh, Frederick Douglass was black. Right. What is, what are you saying is that they're not being included in the planning of their

[01:02:05] own reality, their own existence because they are black. But was Haiti represented at that fair? I don't believe so. I don't have full notes on that one. Um, but I just, I just know that there wasn't a, there wasn't a ton of agency there if they were. Um, but yeah, the Panama Pacific international exposition in San Francisco. Um, it was, uh, not a colonial display. It was territorial self-promotion.

[01:02:35] Um, Hawaii, not yet a state. Um, that had actual economic agency and shaping its own image. They really, they, I think they saw that this was a thing. This was, uh, this cultural exchange thing we want in on this. We want people to come visit, come move here. Um, there's a hundred thousand dollars in investment up to 34,000 visitors in a day.

[01:03:01] Um, it was as one representative said, a conquest of friendship, a conquest of education. Uh, Henry Ford, uh, saw the Kailami's Hawaiian quintet on the spot. Sorry. I don't, my mouth doesn't deal well with English, let alone any other language. Um, he visited and he was like, this is really cool. He said, listening to your boys sing and play the sweet Hawaiian music has made me desirous

[01:03:30] of enabling our people in Detroit to enjoy the same pleasure. Fun fact, a hundred thousand, a hundred thousand dollars in 1914 was $3.3 million in today's That's a lot. That's a lot of money. And how many, how many people would you say go through? 34,000. How many, how many, how many is that in 2026? Let's see. Hold on. 34,000. 34,000. Are you going to read? Yes, I am.

[01:03:59] Adjusted for inflation. Would be. 1914. What? Oh, sorry. From, from 1915. Damn it. Uh, from, this is why people listen to our show from. I've got it here. 1915. It's a million. There's a million people. Yeah. It's a million people. It's a million people. Are you guessing? No, I looked it up. Oh. 30,000 in 1914 is a million today. So, be it. Yeah. I forgot how many numbers. I'm a teacher.

[01:04:28] Um, education system. Uh, yeah. So it was actually a million people. Okay. Got it. In 1916, in 1916, Hapa Holy music, uh, reportedly outsold every other genre in America. I'm assuming that is Hawaiian music. Um, in 1933, Don Beach. That's the name that he gave himself. Oh, the beachcomber. Opened. Yeah.

[01:04:58] Don, the beach, Don Beachcombers. Um, in Hollywood and Trader Vic. That's, uh, Tom Trader. Uh, he opened up one in Oakland. Uh, by the way, I was in the San Francisco airport last week and there was a Trader Vic's in the airport across the way from Trader Vic's. Wow. It's like Starbucks. Like Starbucks. San Francisco Starbucks. It's exciting. Right.

[01:05:24] I think it's safe to say that Trader Vic, at least knew about this exposition. So did probably Don Beach. Don Beach, actually another interesting dude, just like Buffalo Bill, not from the movie. Um, and, um, Anton LaVey and Bowie and Orville Redenbacher, Colonel Sanders, all these people that have like played with identity. Um, his own biography is highly self invented.

[01:05:50] Um, so here we have to kind of pull it together. And I think I see what, why you asked, uh, we start with the territorial pavilion, the territorial pavilion, which came from these other things, um, leads to Ford hiring Hawaiian musicians. Uh, there's a manufactured natural, national craze. Tiki bars happen with self mythologizing founders. Tiki room opens.

[01:06:19] And oddly enough, the birds whistle off Offenbach. Just a fun connection. Um, and this all becomes a thing because Walt Disney, a chain, Jimmy gave up on us. Oh, no. Dan just bored him out of the podcast. Sorry.

[01:06:43] Uh, do you want me to, I'll finish the thought because I was in mid thought. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. Walt Disney, a chain smoking, eccentric man who wanted the world's most complicated train set and made it increasingly more complicated as we go.

[01:07:02] Walt Disney has this format, this place where he can kind of look at what's going on with these things and go, okay, what if I put a bunch of money into it? And, and oh, by the way, I have these singing birds that I saw that I'm really interested in working with. So, and also Trader Vic obviously was inspired by Trader Sam from the jungle cruise. Right. And Trader Joe. So, of course they all traded with each other.

[01:07:31] They all knew each other. Mm-hmm . Trader Giotti, Trader Ming, whatever he calls his Asian stuff. Mahjong. Uh, wow. So, so we're trying to say is the Paris exposition was a very, uh, it just led to. It was an inflection point. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't say it's the beginning by any stretch.

[01:07:57] But it's kind of like, it's where, you know how like music, we feel like music didn't exist until the Beatles came along. Mm, right. You know, this is like that. Interesting. Wow. So, the Disney World one's better? Oh, oh man. We are running low on time. Yeah. Jimmy's got a heart out in a few minutes here. Mm-hmm . Dan, we did it again. I'm not gonna make the joke I wanna make.

[01:08:27] Uh-oh. I've already have enough notes about things to cut. Okay. Um, so, I mean, I guess we can start with the Tiki Garden. Uh, well, no, so wait, um, I was just struck by the back to the donkeys, but. It finally occurred to me, he's like, white donkeys? Why white donkeys? You talked about the singing birds, but what, what about the flowers? Where do we get to the flowers singing?

[01:08:55] Oh, well that's, that's where white Wakanda starts to break down. That's where we, the, the, again, the Tiki Room dads, they knew they were gonna come in and see birds singing. That's part of it. We all know that. It's the first thing you see. It's, but they never tell you that the flowers, that the flowers and the walls are going to sing at you and ask you to sing back to them. Yeah.

[01:09:23] Suddenly you, you go from, I'm purely a spectator. This is everyone else is an NPC to, oh no, there were never any NPCs. They're all looking at me. What do I do? It breaks down. And I think, I think it's intentional. I don't think that they intended to create Tiki Room dads, but I think it was more like, okay, we know, we knew that you came here for a passive experience, but that's not what we're doing here because it's a goddamn theme park. So, so Offenbach.

[01:09:54] Sorry, gosh darn. So basically what you're saying is Offenbach wrote a fake Chinese satire opera. Yes. And his music was later actually inside the Tiki Room. Yeah. I don't know why the, the way that I put my notes together put so much emphasis on that, but it really wanted me to put emphasis on it. So I did. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. You've got Offenbach in here a few times.

[01:10:21] It, let me tell you, my friend Claude loved that. Wow. Um, okay. So, uh, so I mean, I, I do want to talk about under new management. So, well, I, all right. So I do have a hard out. Um, so let's, let's pick up with the Tiki gardens. Yeah, I think that's fair. Okay.

[01:10:47] So that we kind of teased Thorough Ravenbach or Thorough Ravenscroft. Sorry. I'm back to Offenbach again. Thorough Debussy. Thorough Gary Debussy. And then, uh, I, I think also, and we'll get into it, but I think also like the whole thing about the different gods and whatever, I assume there are any, any gods in the France pavilion, but, um, Oh, I don't think they, I don't think they limited themselves with that. Oh yeah. But like it starts.

[01:11:15] So I think maybe even have, uh, some, some, uh, um, Paul Fries in there maybe in the, in the garden, but it would be interesting to kind of go through each of the gods in order and what they are and maybe get into Maui. What is he actually the God of, and how is it related to the rock and you know, the different portrayal. And then the, the, the, the God of soccer's in there, I think Pele, um, barefoot. Um, but yeah, I think that would be interesting to kind of move into.

[01:11:44] And funnily enough, that, that, that Lucy goosey idea of like, we're going to make these gods have Tony, the tiger's voice. Cause whatever, they're just basically cartoon characters, right? That, that, that spirit also comes from this, the, the world's fair thing where it's just like, it's, but it's cool. Right. If people seem to like it, Mark Davis is like, I took a book out from the library and everything.

[01:12:12] Meanwhile, the guy from the village, meanwhile, the guy from the village is like, just giving you this look like this isn't cool. Right. Like you're also not okay with this, right? Please. And then also I'd like to get into, you'd kind of mentioned, or you'd intimated to the cultural appropriation. Yes. But also that wouldn't be built today. Mm hmm. I don't. Yeah. And kind of, maybe we can get into that.

[01:12:40] And then also is the, is it cultural appropriation to have, um, some white dude, Wally Bogue from the. Golden horseshoe down the street. The answer is yes. The answer is yes. The answer is yes. The answer is yes. Or is that cultural appropriation? That, that is the 1960s. Yes. Well, it's like, it's not wrong. Where would we find it?

[01:13:05] There are, they do say, Ach, to Lieber in Germany, but maybe. Yeah. I think that's a big part of what we wouldn't get today. And, you know. Or if it was, it would be an actual German. Well, I, I don't know that it would be an actual, it would be an actual Mexican. Fair. I don't know if. That's true because Germans are white. Yeah.

[01:13:29] And, and again, I don't think, I don't think we're saying that as like a, whatever, we're going to treat white people like, I don't think we're doing that at all. I think. Yeah. No, no, no. I think, I think, uh, we are correctly interchangeable in several ways. Fair enough. Fair enough. Fair enough. So then also, can you, in your notes, can you explain why there are Germans and French people and Latin folk in the Hawaiian thing?

[01:13:59] Well, I suppose we could do. Yeah. Yeah. That's something we can get into. Yeah. I think it may be. I, my hunch is that maybe at some point, some imagineer was like, you know, this is kind of weird what we're doing here. Right. And then someone was just like, Oh, just make another one. Irish make one German. Make one French. Oh. And by the way, those kids, they're going to always love that Satchmo impersonation and that being Crosby.

[01:14:29] Crosby. Oh, fair. Yeah. Yeah. Maurice Chevalier. Let me tell you, every time I watch the Tiki Room, all the teens light up and high five each other when they start doing that. Oh, he did the. Yeah. I didn't think you do Maurice Chevalier. Yeah. And it's just a curtain. Maybe it's racist when, when the Mexican bird is always asleep in the middle of the day. Maybe, maybe. I mean, I'm trying to take a siesta.

[01:14:59] It's cultural. Yeah. I mean, you know, Wally Bogue doing his best speedy Gonzalez impersonation. But anyway. Not today. But we'll get into all that. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Well, I have a loaf of cinnamon swirl bread that's coming out of the oven that I need to attend to. So if you need to use the bathroom, you can just tell us that. Well, that's, that's a euphemism for cinnamon swirl bread. Oh, okay. Hot out of the oven. You know what I mean.

[01:15:29] Okay. What's the time? Oh, come on. It's no worse than Gary Debussy. Anyway. All right. Well, I think we're going to have to. Who's, who's winning so far? I think so far, I think pretty much Disneyland's already won. But, but Paris wins everything. If not for the Paris exposition, we would not have a podcast. How about that? Actually kind of probably true.

[01:15:57] You know, this kind of reminds me of is when we were doing the, the hall of presidents, you know, March Madness thing. And we landed on, if not for FDR, there is no Disneyland. Right. And it was totally, and it like, it's not what we thought it was a bit. And then we actually explored it and we're like, Oh wait. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. All right. Well, listener, thank you for listening to this episode. So far the score is tied. Disneyland and Disney World both have a million points.

[01:16:28] Adjusted for inflation. Hold on. From five minutes ago? No, from 1915. I love that you're actually waiting for me to do this. I am. It's 33 million, 166, 336 and 63 cents. That's what you do have that. Okay. I'd say Disneyland has 64 cents. So far. Because that's all we've talked about. Right. All right, everybody. Well, thanks for listening.

[01:16:55] We will get to the bulk of the Tiki Room on the next episode. Yeah, we should be able to finish it next time. In the meantime, thank you for listening. There are other shows on the network. They are the shows that you know and don't listen to. Also, Scraping the Vault. I'm on some of them. Yeah, I'm just joking, Eric. Scraping the Vault will return for its triumphant conclusion at some point. Listen to Dan Hates the... Wait. Dan loves David Bowie. Bowie-splaining is what it's called. Yeah.

[01:17:26] Also, listen to the Hub Crawl. And listen to Spokes. Because our friend Marie, who we'll see this coming weekend, is host of that show. And yeah, I think that's everything. Have a wonderful rest of your day, whatever time you're listening. Until next time, be good to each other. And the resort is adjourned. Oh, we've done all this. And we're going to have a commercial break.

[01:17:52] Hi, I'm Dan for the concept of pineapples. Not the actual pineapples themselves, but the concept of them. Only can. Did you know that many swingers enjoy a delicious pineapple? This is not a useful for anything that they do together or with other people. Fish bowls are also used by swingers.

[01:18:16] Sometimes, tropical exotic drinks are served in fish bowls with giant straws that the whole family can enjoy. Without the children. Goodbye. I love you. Fresh Bake. 8-5-6-hour ears.