Puny Pod | Super Secret Spoiler Show - The Incredible Hulk (from the Quantum Realm)

[00:00:00] Hello Puny Podians, this is current day Ryan, or maybe slightly past Ryan, depending on when you're listening to this, what episode it's on the front of. Anyway, David and I have decided that we wanted to share with you some of our favorite content that we make, our super secret spoiler show. These episodes are typically released via the Ears Up Patreon, however, we figured we're past the Infinity Saga, we might as well grab some of those Pym Particles, run through the Quantum Realm,

[00:00:30] and release these super fun episodes from the past. A few notes before the episode starts, first, we don't have a language filter in these episodes, so cap, cover yours. Secondly, as the name implies, these have spoilers for everything up to and including any current releases at the time of recording. One last note, these were recorded about two years ago, and they undergo very, very little editing.

[00:00:59] In fact, the sound quality will kind of be what it is, and you'll kind of hear it change over time as I learn and change. Also, things we say might be a little bit out of date. You know, we don't have Doctor Strange's time stone to be able to go back in time and correct ourselves and know the future.

[00:01:23] Anyway, I hope that you guys all enjoy this nonsense, and if you want to get these less than two years from when we record them, go join the Ears Up Patreon. The link is in the show notes as always. Enjoy the episode! Thanks for visiting the TVA! Well, it's a super secret after show, the super secret after show, it's after secret. I'm going to sample that, and that's going to be the secret show. Jesus Christ. You're welcome. Oh, God.

[00:01:54] All right, here we go. Let's get going. Well, it's a super secret after show, the super secret after show, it's after secret. All right, all, thank you for joining us here on our super secret spoiler show on the Ears Up Patreon. As a reminder, this is the super secret spoiler show for The Incredible Hulk.

[00:02:20] For those of you who listen to the Iron Man super secret spoiler show, we recorded that about two weeks after recording the episode. We are recording The Incredible Hulk about 14 minutes after recording the main show. So, David, you still doing good over there? I'm doing okay. I need a drink, though. Hold on. Fair enough. Fair enough. Nice. All right. Nice grab.

[00:02:50] All right, David. Well, as is usual with our super secret spoiler show, my first question for you, my friend, is what are you drinking? I am drinking a 394 Pale Ale by Ale Smith. It is a San Diego-based brewery, and as I just discovered two minutes ago, it is a joint collaboration with Tony Gwynn, who was the last baseball player to flirt, seriously flirt with the 400 batting average for a season.

[00:03:19] And it is – oh, it's very good. Nice. It's a crisp, hoppy, little – yeah. It's delicious. It's Pale Ale. Yummy. What are you drinking? That is awesome.

[00:03:38] Well, continuing my tradition of finding things that are themed to the movie we're drinking or we watched, I am drinking Hop Troll Strata from Odd 13, which is here in Broomfield, Colorado. Now, at first glance, you might be like, why is that themed to the movie? Well, this beer is actually a smash, so single malt, single hop.

[00:04:06] It's actually a hazy IPA using that smash style, which is kind of cool. But yeah, Hulk smash. Figured I had to find a smash for this one. So let's give it a shot. It's a good call. That's good. That's good. I like these smashes. You really get the characteristic of the single malt and the single hop that they are using. And so you get a lot of citrus notes on this one. Real good.

[00:04:36] Real, real good. All right. Well, before I forget it, and because we're drinking, I want to make sure that I get this out first. Thank you, everybody, for listening to this show. If you are hearing this show, it means you are supporting the network, which means you are supporting us. And we do truly, truly, truly, truly appreciate that support.

[00:05:03] So if you are listening to this show and you have no idea who the hell is talking to you right now, we are Puny Pod. This is released in a mixed feed with the Ears Up podcast secret show, as well as the Supreme Resort After Hours. We are Puny Pod. We do we rewatch a MCU movie every every month and tear it down in two hour long episodes.

[00:05:34] So basically this month we watched the Incredible Hulk so that you didn't have to. And during our main show, we try not to spoil what what like how that that movie connects to movies we haven't watched yet. But here in the super secret spoiler show, spoilers are on the table and so are cuss words.

[00:06:02] So if you are watching, if you're listening with your kids earmuffs. But but yeah, David, I guess you want to do the spoilers connections to the other movies first or do you want to do our ongoing segments first? That's a good question. I want to the couple things I want to talk about in the movie and then we can kind of get into the segments as well.

[00:06:32] I think more so than Iron Man, this movie offered a lot in terms of connections to other films. And so I'm kind of it was really tough like when we're going through the movie because the movie itself is not it's not fantastic. But there are a lot of different like kernels that are kind of dropped throughout.

[00:06:49] So the do you want to talk about the spoiler stuff or do you want to talk more about like general themes, feelings on the movie that we didn't get into during the normal show? Let's talk about you know what? Let's let's wrap up anything that we left out of the normal show that would have normally gone in the normal show. And then I can get on with the spoiler. All right.

[00:07:13] One thing we alluded to on the on the main feed is Edward Orton and how he was eventually not recast as Bruce Banner, Incredible Hulk. So I guess there were a couple things. You know, I did a little research on this and it looks like there were kind of principally things that were going on that Marvel eventually kind of squashed later on.

[00:07:40] So first it was Edward Norton as the screenwriter. So Edward Norton claims that he agreed to star in the movie on the proviso that he'd be allowed to write the script. He wanted to rewrite the script himself to bring the film closer line to the comics, which he was a big fan of. So and I saw a separate interview where he was talking about how he was in American History X and Fincher had presented the script. And he provided some feedback and how went to a different different direction.

[00:08:10] And so I get the sense that like this is something that Edward Norton was now like, oh, hey, now I'm now I'm a screenwriter as well as an actor. And according to Tim Roth, Norton rewrote scenes every day. However, he was only able to change the dialogue and develop certain characters because much of the film had already been prepared. And so Marvel submitted both Norton and Zach Penn's draft to the Writers Guild of America, which awarded Penn sole credit after reading his plea.

[00:08:38] The WGA basically favored Penn's original plot structure and characters over Norton's like minor dialogue changes. In addition to rewrites, he directed himself in some of his own scenes, such as the campus scenes, in order to save time while Leteria worked with the second unit. So it sounds like Edward Norton, fantastic actor, but a bit of a control freak.

[00:09:04] But then after the release of the film, then it kind of came out that this guy was a pain in the ass to deal with. Director Louis, as I will call him, admitted that there had been several disagreements between Norton and the filmmakers. In 2010, shortly before announcing the Avengers at San Diego Comic-Con, Kevin Feige released a statement clarifying Norton was let go.

[00:09:27] Quote, our decision is definitely not based on monetary factors, but instead rooted in the need for an actor who embodies the creativity and collaborative spirit of our other talented cast members. That is the biggest fuck you you will ever hear from a Marvel executive. Yeah, that's brutal.

[00:09:49] In response, Norton's agent said in a statement that Feige initially wanted the actor to continue playing a Hulk and the decision to let him go, quote, seemed to us to be a financial decision. He called Feige's comments, quote, mean-spirited, unprofessional, disingenuous, and clearly defamatory. In 2018, now this is 10 years after the film was released. You think like at that point in time, you don't give a shit anymore. Yeah, you just drop it.

[00:10:15] And Norton said, he is quoted as saying, quote, I did a, I can't remember what, he was on some podcast, he said, quote, I did a big action movie called The Incredible Hulk. You know what went wrong? It needed a better script. I thought maybe we should try to make one Marvel movie that was at least as good as one of the, at least as good as the worst Christopher Nolan movie, but what the hell was I thinking? Oh. End quote. Everyone, thanks for showing up for the MCU. Yeah.

[00:10:46] That's brutal, man. And that's funny because we talked a little bit about that in the zero-eth episode about how like the MCU is not the Chris Nolan movies. Like it is not. And for those who don't know, the Chris Nolan movies are like Dark Knight, Dark Knight Rises, those movies. And that's, that's just not what the MCU is about. Not, not what they were, especially then.

[00:11:15] I mean, you can argue that, that by the Eternals, you're getting closer to that with, with having like Chloe Zhao do the, the directing and, and a more serious tone and, and that sort of thing. But, um. Wow. That's, that's brutal. Yeah. I, I, I really like Edward Norton a lot as an actor. Um, but he just sounds like a complete, I can't say complete nightmare because I think he is, he is good. He's probably a perfectionist. He is not.

[00:11:46] Nicholas Cage or, or some other actors who I, who you get the sense are just legitimately, um, maniacs. Um, but, uh, yeah, dude is not happy about his, his appearance in the Hulk. Like at all. Um, so that was, that was one of the things, um, I noted, um, in the movie itself.

[00:12:09] Uh, let's talk about, I, let's, we didn't talk about what is probably like an, like an unspoken, um, actor in the movie or unspoken, uh, part of the cast. And that is the CGI department. Yeah. Right. Um, like what are your thoughts on the CGI in this movie overall, given that it was made like 2007?

[00:12:39] So like 15, 16 years ago. You know, I, I think especially given the timeframe, it holds up actually incredibly well. Um, is it the best CGI ever? No, it, it, it, there's definitely some pieces that are dated.

[00:12:59] And, and like I talked about in the main show that, that, that scene on the table, that scene where we are, where we're, we're experimenting on banner and testing out his, um, we're testing out the cure. And that's horrible. That's horrible. Like it is legitimately bad. It's not just bad for the MCU or, or, you know, bad for a good movie. It's, it's legitimately bad.

[00:13:27] Um, it reminded me a lot of the, the CGI in, um, the X-Men. I think it was the first X-Men movie where the Senator turns into water. Um, I remind me of like a video game where you see where like, like it glitches up at a particular point and you walk through a wall. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And, um, but overall, I mean, as, as slow and as clunky as that last fight was, the CGI in it actually wasn't bad.

[00:13:58] Uh, and that, that first fight, the CGI was legitimately good in that the first attack through the, the Pingo Doce, um, uh, factory. That was actually legitimately good. Like, yeah. The, uh, the other thing, which I noticed on my final rewatch.

[00:14:24] And when I say final rewatch, I mean, I'm not going to watch this film again. I take that. I probably, if, if there might be a circumstance, like if I just want to like watch all the whole content together. But, um, when you watch it again, look at the CGI they do on Tim Roth when he is shirtless. Yeah.

[00:14:46] At the very, after he, after he gets each dose, they CGI like some abs on him and add more muscle sinew. Cracks me up. Cracked me up when I saw that today. Like the very end, like I've, I've, I've noticed like on, on, on Instagram, there'll be all these like videos of people who've gotten actual like six packs tattooed onto their body. And I'm just like, what the fuck are you doing? And that reminded me of it. So that's fair. That's fair. Yeah.

[00:15:15] And it, I will say that's the other thing I noticed. Uh, the Hulk has nipples and the abomination does not. So let's talk about, um, let's talk about, uh, well, let's, let's talk about abomination and Hulk. Um, and this will relate a little bit back to the comic book. I do want to, I do, I did, I did want to like, when you were going through when Blonsky is now getting his third dose of stuff and he's threatening Sterns. And he's like, he's like, Hey, I want some of that stuff.

[00:15:45] He, uh, you just remind me of like someone who's on a bender, who's just like, I will drink anything. Just give, I just need a drink. And that's what it reminded me of this guy. Sure. Whatever. We want to put like, you know, frog milk in me. Sure. Whatever. Like does not care. Whatever gets me to drag. Um, so abomination Hulk. I did not know this from before. I did not read the Hulk standalone Hulk comic books.

[00:16:10] Um, too much read some of the stuff that, uh, John Byrne did never read abomination. I guess the differences between the Hulk and abomination, the abomination has this like steady level of strength. Whereas the Hulk, it will exceed, it will, it will grow above and beyond. So in the scene, in the fight, cause if, um, and all the abomination also has at least historically.

[00:16:37] The, the intelligence memory of, of, of the, of Blonsky and the Hulk ban, you know, we don't know at least in this movie, like how much of banners, like cunning and intellect is apparent for the Hulk or whether he is just a crazy out of control rage monster. Um, we know he recognizes Betty. And so there's, there's some banner in there, but I don't think banners using the same level intellect.

[00:17:02] But I thought that was interesting because if abomination had both gamma rays and Bruce's blood and he's stronger than theory, there's no way for the Hulk to win. Right. So I guess that was the thing when he rages up and he goes above and beyond and then chokes him out with the invincible chain, which is ridiculous. But I guess that, that, uh, that makes sense.

[00:17:24] Why, um, this cracked me up during the, the, like watching it, the scale of the Hulk is totally inconsistent in this movie. Yes. Um, the size of the Hulk is, it just, it's always different. And it, and I guess maybe that's part of his power growing and shrinking, or maybe that's just me being nice to the CGI department and they just didn't know how to, you know, properly do scale at the time.

[00:17:53] But, um, but yeah, he, it's constantly changing. And so that, I guess like retroactively, and maybe we're giving credit where it's not due, but it makes sense that, that, that he'd get bigger if he's more powerful, smaller, if he's less powerful. Um, I think they, I think they sorted it out by the later films, but by the time they got to, um, uh, Mark Ruffalo playing the Hulk. Uh, cause I, I agree with you.

[00:18:20] I, there were certain points of time where I just had to let certain things go and the Hulk's varying heights and dimensions. I'm like, I'm just not gonna, I'm just not gonna trip over it. It doesn't make any sense. Right. I would say he probably at various points of time, what do you think is shortest? What do you think is the shortest Hulk that we see in the film? Like full, fully transformed Hulk. Obviously when he's in the chair, he's eight feet, nine feet tall. And then up to like 15. I don't know.

[00:18:50] There's, there's, I want to say that was in the cave where he's only like a head taller than Liv Tyler. That's right. That's right. Um, and she's, I don't think she's that tall. Uh, let's see how tall is Liv Tyler. She used to be a model. So I imagine she's not short. So I'd say probably at least five and a half feet. Yeah. Five, 10. So throw another foot on top of that. About six, six, 10, almost seven feet.

[00:19:16] Probably, probably at his tallest or his shortest, I would say. Okay. So, uh, like Randy Johnson height. I'm not buying that. Yeah. So, yeah, he definitely needs to be a little bigger. Um, let's, let's talk a little bit. Um, all the connections, the, the, I, I, I'm sure you probably counted a bunch of stuff.

[00:19:42] I spotted connections to at least five different properties. So it was Captain America, uh, Iron Man, Spider-Man, Avengers, and Thor and Thor. So, um, the, let's talk about, I think the most, the most, uh, groundwork they laid was for Captain America. Absolutely. Yeah. Right. I, I agree.

[00:20:09] Um, we've got, we've got the cryo sink chamber, which had the super, uh, the, the, um, the serum. Um, it's got the Stark Industries label. Uh, you, you recognize the name that was on the thing, uh, on the, on the container. It was Dr. Uh, Reince. Is it Reince, Reince, Reince, I think. Yeah. I think it's Einstein with an R at the front, but yeah, it's like, it's Reince, Reince,

[00:20:39] something like that. Uh, but it's, it's Abraham Erkstein. Erkstein. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's his, um, pseudonym. Okay. Yeah. I thought, um, so I thought that was a, like, that was, and maybe that, that should have been my favorite scene. Maybe even, but even that, like, that's so sad. Um, uh, yeah.

[00:21:02] So you've got the person who, while employed, uh, World War II created the super, uh, super soldier serum, um, it, which was used to create the Red Skull. Didn't work too well. Created Steve Rogers. Worked pretty well. Created Blonsky. Worked pretty well. Yeah. It worked well. Like it, it succeeded. It did what it was supposed to. It did what it was supposed to. Um, and it was also used.

[00:21:31] Used, um, we saw in, uh, Captain, uh, I'm sorry. Um, uh, Falcon and Winter Soldier. Yep. Right. Um. Used on a few people. Yep. Yep. But so I thought that that was, it's one of the interesting connections between all these different films. Um, I like that part. I got a little, I got a little confused as to how we got to the abomination, but we cleared that up in terms of getting both the gamma blood and the.

[00:22:00] Uh, and the serum. Yeah. It's the mix. It's the, the, I don't know what's in you already, but when we mix it, it might become an abomination. Hate that line. That's one of my, I'm going to, uh, I'm going to say, I'm making a note to myself that I'm going to separately keep a list of my least favorite lines. And that is on the list. That's going to be on there for a while.

[00:22:26] Um, but that's at the end or, and then the other captain America one. So, so yeah, super soldier serum, which in the comics, super soldier serum is such a through line, right? Super soldier serum. Um, is, is like a very frequent piece of a story. It's, it's, it's somebody's looking for super soldier serum. Someone's recreated it. Someone's done this, that, or the other was super soldier serum. And, and the MCU hasn't done it that much so far.

[00:22:55] Um, I think that's, that's one of the cool things about, uh, Falcon and winter soldier was like, it, it really did kind of go down that, that like rabbit hole of super soldier serum. And you got a little bit of it through like, um, red guardian in, um, black widow and you get a little bit of it through, um, the, uh, through the other winter soldiers.

[00:23:19] Um, Isaiah Bradley, the five Russian ones that like got all mutated and messed up and eventually murdered. Yeah. Um, so it was cool to see it. Yep. Bucky. Right. Um, so it was cool to see it there, but the other captain America tie in actually comes from a deleted scene, um, which this deleted scene, and we'll talk about how it plays into the

[00:23:44] Avengers, um, is the, the, the, you talk about the opening alternate. Yes. The ultimate opening. Um, we get to see the scene and actually I'll, I'll borrow from our segment on where it ties into the Avengers. We get to see the scene where in the Avengers, uh, banner says, um, in case you need to kill

[00:24:11] me, um, you know, he's talking about the, the cell he's in, like this might be able to kill me. He's like, I know you can't kill me. I tried. I got low. I didn't see an end. So I put a bullet in my mouth and the other guy spit it out. So I moved on. I focused on hoping, helping people. I was good until you drag me back into this freak show and put everyone here at risk. Um, in an alternate opening, which the CGI was done on that opening.

[00:24:37] That opening was literally, it had to have been cut like from the final cut. It, it, if you go out and watch it, maybe I'll throw, um, maybe I'll throw some links to it in our, uh, in the secret show, uh, show notes. But, um, if, if you go back and watch that, it's done and you see the Hulk, you see Bruce get dropped off in the Arctic. He goes out into the middle of nowhere in the Arctic where he knows no one else is going

[00:25:07] to get hurt. If, if he does transform and you see him cock a gun and then get turned into the Hulk and the Hulk smashes the gun Hulk smashes an ice shelf as the, the shockwave of the ice shelf ripples. Um, you see Captain America in the ice. Um, and ultimately that was cut because they just didn't feel like, well, I think it was cut for a lot of reasons.

[00:25:32] I think that scene itself was probably cut because showing suicidality in a, in a Marvel movie wasn't really where that, where the MCU was at the time. Um, and then also, uh, I know that ultimately they didn't want to put Captain America. They didn't want to start Steve Rogers off in a scene like that. They didn't feel that was appropriate. So I watched the same deleted scenes as you did. And I watched that opening scene over and over again.

[00:26:00] I've seen screen grabs. I don't know how anybody with normal vision could have spotted Captain America in the ice. I agree. I agree. There's like, if they had wanted that to be a Captain America, like cameo, they would have needed to like up the, up the like saturation on his blue about 20,000% just to make him show up because yeah, it's like, that's, that's, it's a blue shadow on the ice is what

[00:26:30] it looks like. Um, I could not even tell, like, uh, it was, yeah, it was not, but I thought that that was, but I like the fact that they put that stuff in, they put in, like you said, the, the banner quote to Fury, even though he makes reference to it, like, and it did, didn't really show it. That was a nice little nod back to that deleted scene. Um, you know, we get some, we get a little, little Tony Stark.

[00:26:58] We get a little connection to Iron Man two, where he is called the consultant. Um, where, uh, where fear is like, I don't, man, we don't want you to, we don't want you to be in the group, but you're kind of unstable. Like we just went once you was the consultant. Yeah. And so technically, technically, uh, because Hulk makes, he uses the name in the one shot where they refer to him as the consultant suggests the connection to Iron Man two.

[00:27:27] And this movie comes before Iron Man two, which, you know, I think you asked the question, are these out of order? Was the Hulk released in proper chronicle or chronological order or not? And I think it was, I think that the one shot tried to fix that and they just kind of, eh, they just kind of like glossed over the Iron Man two that, uh, part, but. Yeah.

[00:27:53] And I mean, it is important to note that one shot was released on Thor's home release, which Thor comes after cow or Iron Man two. So in theory, like as far as knowledge, we find out it makes sense, I guess. Um, but yeah, it's, it, it does like repeatedly watching this, um, and especially the cut scenes and stuff.

[00:28:20] If I, I did pre-show pre-main show, I asked David cause David did all of his, um, production stuff. I ask, you know, Hey, I ask you, was this, uh, released out of order? And like you said, it just unfortunately was not. It was not, it was not. Let's talk about, I saw your note. Let's talk about Martin Starr. Oh man. Uh, it's so, oh boy.

[00:28:52] It's funny. So we talked about this a little bit. So a little bit of behind the scenes. Um, we are still feeling out the edges of what's a spoiler, what's not. Um, and so I do want to say that, uh, I stand firmly on the side that, that any connection to a future movie, uh, probably stays out of the main show, but, um, we talked a lot about this Martin Starr cameo or whatever you want to call it. Um, casting, um, one, I'm a big comedy fan and a lot, like I like a lot of Seth Rogen

[00:29:21] stuff and Martin Starr is like a constant piece of Seth Rogen's crew. So he shows up a lot. So I recognize his face very easily. Um, and I remember it was probably the second, I think it was. So in the main show I referred to, I watched this movie in 2018 as part of 300 movies I watched.

[00:29:43] Um, and I think it was when I watched this movie that time that I became convinced that Martin Starr played the same character in this, as he plays later on down the road in the Spider-Man movies, homecoming far from home. I think he also showed up in, uh, no way home. If I remember right. Um, he showed up briefly there too.

[00:30:10] Um, as Mr. Harrington, the debate teacher, um, which in 2018, when I had this theory, it was a hair brained fan theory. Um, now what I discovered in researching for this episode that I was super excited to discover was that Kevin Feige canonized my idea.

[00:30:31] Um, so, uh, in a 2019 ask me anything on, um, uh, on. I can't remember what I saw. I know which one you're talking about. I can't remember what it was, what, where, what the forum was, but yeah, go ahead. But he, uh, Kevin Feige said they're the same person. That's the same character.

[00:30:55] Uh, the, the, the computer nerd in the, um, Culver university, uh, computer lab is the same Mr. Harrington that goes on to be a debate coach and chaperone for, uh, a future Peter Parker. So, which I love, I, I really enjoy that part. I like the fact that he just kind of, you know, snapped his fingers and canonized something that what didn't have to be, but why not? What does it hurt?

[00:31:24] Like, uh, and I think it's kind of cool because it does help to bring in just a little tiny bit, a little tie to the spider, the Sony Spider-Man stuff, which is kind of on its own doing its own thing. I know that they collaborate with Marvel and they're not going to go down a road that Marvel doesn't want them to do. But, you know, it's not like the Avengers are appearing in a bunch of, in the Sony movies. So to have a character from Culver university is kind of cool. Yeah.

[00:31:52] And I will say we, we will watch those Spider-Man movies. Um, I consider them part of the MCU. Uh, so we'll definitely watch them. They, they refer to events that happened in the MCU. They refer, refer to the battle of New York. They refer to, um, uh, Iron Man, um, all kinds of stuff. So I, I do intend to watch those as part of this podcast.

[00:32:20] The, um, speaking of Culver university. So, um, again, a character in the movie in the sense that it is tied to a number of other movies. So Culver university is a Marvel college, uh, school of, you know, uh, of kind of graduate research and so forth where Bruce and Betty taught.

[00:32:47] Um, we saw the reference to Rick Jones student, uh, Rick Jones being a character from the Hulk. comic book who was arguably the nexus behind the creation of the cult of the Hulk. When he, um, you know, basically banner saved his life from a gamma ray explosion and got, um, you know, uh, um, imbued with the gamma rays insurance from the Hulk, but other Culver

[00:33:15] university graduates include Dr. Jane Foster and Darcy Lewis. So, yeah. And we see in Thor, we see Darcy Lewis, we see Jane, obviously in all the Thor movies. We see Darcy Lewis in the Thor movies and in, um, uh, Wanda vision. Yep. That thought that was kind of cool. Yeah. That is super cool.

[00:33:45] Um, the only other like direct tie to an exact movie, right. Is Thor Ragnarok, right? So we see there when Bruce is trying to transform in Thor Ragnarok, um, we see a callback to his failed transform midair. Um, except instead of a street in Harlem, he is, uh, crashing into, uh, the rainbow bridge.

[00:34:14] Um, so funny. Yeah. So good. So how, let me, let's think about this. Like, and just off the top of our heads, the jumping out of a plane by someone who themselves cannot fly. So let's see if we can do this. We've got the Hulk in, uh, this movie, incredible Hulk and in Thor.

[00:34:40] We've got, uh, I think didn't captain America jump out of a plane. He did it. I want to say he did it a couple of times. I know, I know for sure he did it in Avengers because, uh, black widow says to him, um, you don't want to do that cap. Uh, these guys are basically gods and he's like, there's one God, ma'am. And he doesn't look like that. Um, and then he jumps out. Black widow in the black widow movie. I think. Yep.

[00:35:09] I do believe she, uh, she jumped off. Uh, yeah, it wasn't a plane. Yeah. Not jumping, jumping, jumping from aerial vehicles. Yeah. Jumping. Yeah. Jumping from there with a jumping from something that is in the air without the ability to fly. Um, to iron man. Yeah. From a building. Right. Yep. Yep. Jumps from a building and has the suit catch up to him.

[00:35:38] Uh, who else has done such a thing? Who's the ones that popped to my mind right away? Yeah, I agree. Um, yeah. So, um, it's definitely a bit of a trope. I would say. I like it. I'm in for it every time. It's always like, oh my gosh, this person's going to die. You're like, ah, now they're fine. Um, superhero landing. So let's, let's talk about Stanley.

[00:36:09] Okay. AKA Stanley Lieber, AKA, uh, the dude who shows up on all these movies. So we saw him in 2003, uh, Hulk. He was in a scene. Actually, I think is the first time he's actually talking in a cameo and he is walking out of a building next to Lou Frigna, who is, you know, typecast as a big buff security guard.

[00:36:36] Um, he is also, again, this movie as the old dude who drinks the, we're on the guarana, uh, soda and then is poisoned and gets sick. We don't know if he dies. It's kind of unclear. Um, and we see him in literally every other Marvel film up until the point of his death. And then I don't think we've seen him in since then. Correct.

[00:37:01] So there, I mean, we talked about it before or offline, the concept of the watcher informant. Um, and the theory, and I, I just literally discovered this just the other day. And so you probably know this, but I do, but like the watcher informant is this character who supposedly travels the universe and then through time and reports on adventures to the

[00:37:31] watchers. And so I guess he shows up in captain America. He shows up at iron man. He shows, you know, iron man. He is, he is, uh, mistaken for Hugh Hefner, I think. Yep. If I remember correctly. Yeah. Um, so what are your thoughts on like that little nugget Easter egg? And I should have said what, what, what has canonized this is that in guardians of the galaxy two, there's a scene where his character is talking to the watcher.

[00:38:01] Um, and the watchers, I'm sorry. And talks about all this, basically talk about the stuff he's seen. He's kind of being cut off and he wants to continue talking. Like it was kind of a throwaway appearance, but like, what are your thoughts on that theory? Yeah. Yeah. I, I've always loved the like idea of like the meta Stanley. Um, and so I liked that they brought it into the MCU and, and it makes sense here.

[00:38:27] And, and I think in that appearance in guardians of the galaxy two, he actually says something about like, I was at their wedding, uh, referring to his cameo in rise of the silver surfer. So it even like crossed universes there, which is kind of fun. Um, and you know, we talked a little bit at the top of the show in the news segment about big hero six. A lot of people don't remember that it's Marvel. One of the things that makes that more or that, that movie distinctly Marvel aside from

[00:38:56] being based on a Marvel comic book is that it is a, it has a Stanley cameo. Um, Stanley actually plays the grandfather of one of the characters, uh, who, uh, wears his underwear inside out front, outside in front and back. Um, yeah, it's a kid, it's a kid's movie. Yeah.

[00:39:21] Um, but yeah, I think, I think it's really fun to think of him as like this, this being beyond the universe. Right. Um, and, um, in the comics, they've done that a couple of times where Stanley has shown up, um, or other writers to, um, one of the, one of my favorite runs of comics is, uh, Deadpool kills the Marvel universe. And at the very end of that, he goes and he kills the writer.

[00:39:46] Like they, they, they draw him, they draw Deadpool killing the writer of the book, uh, which just great, like great meta kind of thing. And so I'm always here for that kind of meta stuff. And I think it is, it does pull it in and it makes it funny for things like this, where, uh, he had to appear in two Hulk movies with different Hulks. Essentially he's appeared alongside every incarnation of the Hulk, right?

[00:40:15] Um, if you, if you seven degrees of Kevin Bacon, it through the various cameos in the, in the various movies, um, he has appeared next to every Hulk. Interesting. What are your, what are your, uh, just, I know we talked a lot about, um, the, the making of the, the scene by scene breakdown, but do you have any in, in like kind of how this connects

[00:40:42] to larger MCU, but any other, anything we didn't touch on in the main, uh, in the main show in terms of like now having watched it three times in a row, do you like your, your feelings towards it? Like what are your, anything we didn't really cover in the main show? Don't watch this three times in a row. Oh my God. Um, I think we cover that in the main show, but don't, don't do it. Dude, it was tough.

[00:41:07] I'm not gonna lie this morning when I'm, when I, I reluctantly pop, I, this last showing, I started three different times and I'd get like 20 minutes in. It's like, I can't. Yeah. It's like getting on the treadmill. Like, oh man, I gotta take a break. I can't, I can't, I'm not going to run this all the way through. And we should be clear. That's not to say it's a bad movie. It like the first, the first time watching it was good, right?

[00:41:30] The first time, first rewatch and probably for any of you out there, um, this is not us dissuading you from watching it. I, I encourage everybody who listens to this show to watch the movies we're watching. I think that that will enrich your experience for sure. Um, and I, I definitely think this is one where, you know, I joke, we joke about, we saved you from watching it, but I do think if, if you haven't watched it or if you haven't watched it in a while, go back and rewatch it. It's a short, yeah.

[00:42:00] It's super worth it. If, yeah, it's a short watch. It is, you're not watching, you know, gone with the wind. You're not watching some three and a half hour, you know, uh, um, um, oh, what's his name? He does the DC stuff. Uh, oh, Chris Nolan. No, no, no. What's the guy, the guy did Superman and Batman stuff late. He had like the four hour cut of his Zack Snyder. Zack Snyder. Yeah. Yeah. It's not that it, this movie, the, the complaints I have about this movie.

[00:42:27] Like, okay, let's get into like how we could have maybe fixed it. One of the things I found really jarring was the editing. Yeah. We jump around from scene to scene, sometimes for like a minute, like we'll be in Brazil and it'll cut to Blonsky talking to Ross for like a minute and then it cuts back. And I found that to be on rewatch. That stuff bugged me a lot. Bugged me a lot more. That's fair. That's fair. Yeah.

[00:42:56] And it, it definitely, man, again, I, uh, so I, I'm going to figure out how to get the, the cut scene or the, the deleted scenes compilation that we, we watched, um, into, into our show notes because I would encourage everybody to go watch that. It's about 30 minutes of, of deleted scenes. Mm-hmm. And when you watch that, you see all these scenes that would have made this movie better

[00:43:26] by and large. Yeah. Um, I don't know if they were cut. I, I, I, I, I, I agree with the theory that they were cut to action it up to make it more action-y and more, um, more focused on action. But, um, I, I can't help but think as I'm watching that, that like, like there's the scene where Blonsky gets called into, into what they seem to be trying to pass off as the,

[00:43:54] the, the like storage room where they have the APCs and all this stuff where he has his conversation with Ross, but it's actually him getting called into a, an office to debrief the mission. And they just like, they cut out that entire debrief in the movie. And that's just one example, right? That's one super specific example, but that's like you were saying, the, the editing is so jarring and so disjointed.

[00:44:21] It, it, it really just seems like what they were trying to do was make a vehicle to get to the action scenes. Yeah, I think that's right. I think, um, I think that action spells profits and sell, you know, I want to, I really want to see this movie. The, you know, discussion that, uh, Nicholas cages, I'm sorry, Nicholas cages. Jesus Christ, I'm already casting him.

[00:44:50] Uh, Edward Orton's character has the movie where he's talking to Stanley, the Pete, the Italian, the owner of the Italian restaurant was actually really interesting. Like that filled in a nice little gap for me and was just kind of completely cut out. And so, yeah, I think, um, I think that the movie also signals, this is the second in the

[00:45:15] MCU, um, um, universe, if you will, the second movie, the second installment. And they're still trying to figure out like the right balance of things, like the balance between movie star, the balance between writer, the balance between director and showrunner. And it gets sideways in this movie and then gets turned up a notch in iron man too.

[00:45:41] And spoiler alert, like iron man two is ranked very low for me. And I'm going to, I'm, if I'm going to be curious how high it ranks in comparison to this movie, after I watch it for the third time, I might put the incredible Hulk above it. Um, but remains to be seen. That's fair. That's fair. Well, um, yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:07] Can I, can I ask you two, two character questions before we get into the, the fun stuff? Uh, Betty, um, you called live Tyler, the worst actress in the planet. Yes, exactly. So much for our, our, uh, guest appearance with her. Uh, do you think it's weird?

[00:46:33] So in, I agree, the chemistry is just, it's really just off and seems very stilted. I, you don't know why she is still so in love with them and hasn't moved on, but whatever. Um, but do you find it odd that Betty is nowhere in MCU, not anywhere else? She isn't referenced. He is quickly moved on to Natasha. Like I found that to be weird because she was so important. Yeah, it, it is super weird.

[00:47:02] And I was trying to remember, um, maybe cause there's a conversation. I want to say it was in Avengers where all the, all the guys are like, oh, our girlfriends aren't here basically. Like, um, Natalie Portman didn't want to do MCU movies anymore. So, uh, Jane Foster wasn't showing up and, uh, Gwyneth Paltrow was arguing with Marvel.

[00:47:31] So, uh, Pepper wasn't showing up. And I could have sworn thinking about that, that Betty got mentioned then we'll have to, we'll have to look out for that as we, as we watch those movies. But outside of that, um, her next appearance ends up being what if, um, and, and honestly, what if has the strongest, like the strongest direct pulls from this, right?

[00:47:59] So, uh, in, in one of the what if episodes, um, Hank Pym is, is basically going crazy and killing off all the Avengers. And you actually see the Culver University fight. That's where Hank Pym kills Bruce Banner is that Culver University fight. And you do see Betty in that, um, she plays a part in that.

[00:48:25] And I think she might show up in another what if episode, but yeah, it is, it is strange. Um, I don't know if it's because Liv Tyler, you know, fell out of love with the MCU. I don't know if it's her bad acting. And so, you know, the producers decided not to move forward with her. Um, it is interesting because her dad, right? Ross is a major player in the MCU.

[00:48:53] Um, a little bit disappointing that we haven't got to see the Red Hulk yet. We haven't got to see Ross Hulk out into the Red Hulk. Um, and we will never get to see, um, you know, that version of, of Ross since, um, the actor has passed. Right. Um, the rumor right now is that it's going to end up being Harrison Ford, which interesting, but. Okay.

[00:49:19] Um, so on the, so on the Ross front and, um, rest in peace, William Hurt, great actor. Absolutely. Um, thank you. I, I always found it weird. Like you've got daughter, you don't even reference her like in any of the movies, but whatever. Um, I, what do you think? And then I'm thinking specifically Ryan, him and his portrayal in all the movies that he appears in. So not just this one.

[00:49:48] Do you like William Hurt as Ross? Cause I watched this one and if this is your first experience, it is tough to come back from this one. Just he, he, I understand he's supposed to be an unlikable military person, but he's not even, I don't even like the way he played this character. But like, what do you, what do you think about William Hurt in the role? You know, I, I don't mind him. I think I, I, I think he plays the hard ass military really well.

[00:50:16] Um, he plays that like there, there is no soft spot to him and, and he is, he is wholly centered on his goal, um, which is to dissect the Hulk and weaponize it. Um, I think it, it, it does, it is a different character than who he ends up being in like civil war. So again, a little bit of behind the scenes for the listener.

[00:50:46] Um, David and I actually in testing for this podcast, deciding how we wanted to do it. Our test episode was on civil war. Um, so, uh, we, we kinda, we watched that one just before we recorded any of these. It's, it's lost to history. So don't ask us to release it. Um, it's gone with the, it's with the arc in the covenant in the, uh, warehouse at the end. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:51:14] But, um, I, I do think it is a, it's more cunning at that point. I think he's, he's not like, right in this movie, he's not necessarily cunning. He's just brute force. I like force of will, I guess is the best way I can describe it is he, he's solely focused on one thing and he's, he's going to head for it no matter what.

[00:51:38] Um, which I think is, is probably less of a great representation than like the slightly more cunning, um, version that we get later on down the road. Right. He fades and he, he, he is still present in the movies. He does not have, I guess it's not, it's not a, as big a deal in the later movies. He doesn't have quite a predominant role. Um, he later becomes secretary of state. I think in one version of the movies of the comic books, he becomes president.

[00:52:05] Um, there is nothing between him and Liv Tyler, which suggests that they'd, they'd even met before being on screen. Like I, you know, at least with like, I understand with Liv Tyler and with Edward Norton, like they'd, they'd had lots of conversations offset about their characters. And so at least even though, while there wasn't huge chemistry, at least they didn't seem uncomfortable around each other. Uh, anyway. Um, all right.

[00:52:33] So, um, speaking of Ross, we're going to cut to one of our favorite segments, which is, uh, rank or describe facial hair, Marvel facials. Folks in the Marvel Cinematic Universe have, uh, magnificent beards, mustaches. Others have what looked to be kind of like glued on things.

[00:53:00] Um, we will in the next episode, spoiler alert, going to get to best wig. Um, as we, it's going to be a tough fight between, uh, between, um, whiplash and Scarlett Johansson playing Scarlet Witch. I mean, um, um, um, uh, sorry. Um, cut that, uh, black, black widow, black widow. So thank you. Um, and, oh, Scarlet Witch has a pretty good wig as well.

[00:53:27] Uh, but in this one, we have Jen Ross, William Hurt, big, I don't even know what you would call that mustache. Does that have a particular name or style? So not, not in the competitive bearding world for, for those who didn't catch the first episode. Uh, I was once upon a time, a competitive bearder. Uh, so I, I know my, I guess I know my stuff.

[00:53:52] Um, um, in the competitive bearding world, mustaches kind of really only break down into natural and then styled. And there's lots of different versions of styled mustaches. Um, but a natural mustache only really breaks down into one thing, which is a natural mustache. Um, and that's what William Hertz is in this. It would be considered a natural mustache. Um, and you know, some people call that a cop stache cause he kind of, it kind of looks

[00:54:21] like a police officer, stereotypic police officer's mustache. It's, or the, the, some people call it a comb. Okay. Yeah. It just looks like a comb sitting on his lip. Um, but I, I mean, it, it looked good. It looked full. It was definitely like the grandpa was a cop one day. So he, he, or once upon a time. So he's got a white mustache these days, uh, type of mustache. That's for sure. Do you think it was real?

[00:54:52] Um, I think throughout the movie, it was likely real. I think he may have shaved it off before the promo photos or the like after credit, not, not after credit scene. Uh, cause I, it's a little crooked at that point. Um, so unless he's really bad at grooming it, uh, yeah, it's fake. Best. Okay. Last facial hair question. They will move on to our most important question. Uh, better go to Robert Downey Jr.

[00:55:20] At the end of this movie or Edward Norton, as we see him at the very last, his very last scene in the movie. Um, I liked Edward Norton's better and man, Tony Starks is growing. Like Robert Downey Jr.'s is growing weird wings. Like, cause in this, at the end of this movie, he's got like an outline of the bottom of his chin, but it doesn't connect up to his sideburns and then like a goatee around his mouth. And, oh man, it's wild.

[00:55:50] Um, Edward Norton's at least connects everywhere and, uh, looks a little bit more like normal. Fair enough. Yes. All right. Most important question. And I, one of the, uh, one of the, this was how I was able to get through this film was to ask myself the question gun to my head.

[00:56:13] I have to cast Nicolas Cage in this movie and I, there were certain points in time during the movie where I would just envision him in literally every role just to get through the scene. I envisioned him as the, the, uh, the Brazilian bully. I, I envisioned him as all the main characters. I envisioned him as Betty. Like, um, you can't, I'm never to refer to your father again or something.

[00:56:43] Stupid. But, uh, what, so if you have to cast him in the movie, what role do you give him? Oh man. Oh, Nick Cage. Where do we place him? Where do we place him? I would place him. You know what? I'm going to give him a starring role in this movie. I'm going to give him Bruce Banner. Um, man. Could you imagine him hulking out?

[00:57:10] Could you imagine Nick Cage and his ridiculous overacting in the transformation scenes? Oh, it'd be fantastic. Especially the scene when he's in the, uh, when he's in the, um, the lab with Stearns. Oh man, he'd be chewing it up. Or the, you won't like me when I'm hungry. Like the, the two fight scenes with the Brazilian bullies. Those would be hilarious.

[00:57:36] I think, um, I'm going to go, I'm going to go on a limb and say, this is one Marvel movie where I would have enjoyed it much more had he been given a role and it would not have mattered which one he was given. Um, I think, don't get me wrong. I think Edward Norton is actually very credible and serviceable. Um, uh, uh, Bruce Banner, Incredible Hulk. I think that, um, obviously, Nicholas Cage would send that in a much different direction.

[00:58:04] The one I landed on was Blonsky just because Blonsky was over the top. Super in the, it was the intensity like Nicholas Cage brings a super duper intensity and crazy eyes. And I, I am there for that. I think that would've been fun. That's fair. That's fair. All right, man.

[00:58:29] Well, anything else, uh, super spoilery that you want to get out before we, uh, get on out of here? No, I think we hit on it. Are you, uh, are you looking for the next movie? I am. I, you know, as we've established big Iron Man fan, I actually posted, uh, to, to kind of tell people we were recording today. I posted a picture of, um, my studio. And so anybody who looks at that, um, will notice how much of a Iron Man fan I am.

[00:58:55] Literally Iron Man, Matt, Mouse, Matt, uh, Iron Man chair. Um, so anytime we get to watch an Iron Man movie, um, I'm stoked. Um, I do at the back of my head mind know that it is the worst of the named Iron Man movies, um, in my, in my estimation. Um, so a little bit bumming on that, but you know what? It, I haven't rewatched that one in forever.

[00:59:23] I haven't watched Iron Man 2 because I watched, like I mentioned last time, I watch, um, Iron Man 3 every winter for Christmas time. Um, and I watch Iron Man 1 all the time. It's kind of one of those, like, I'm hungover, I need an easy movie to watch. I watch it type of movies. But, um, but yeah, I haven't watched Iron Man 2 in a, in a while. So I'm excited to revisit it. Yeah. How about you? I, uh, same thing.

[00:59:50] Um, I'm gonna, I'm looking forward to rewatching it just to see how it connects to the first ones, how it connects to everything after it. I'm kind of curious at some of the onset, um, dysfunction is kind of a strong word, but just the onset little mini battles that occurred. Um, Mickey Rourke just hamming it up. Can't wait to see that again. It's awful Russian accent.

[01:00:20] Oh man. Can't wait for that part. Yeah, for sure. Cool, man. Well, why don't we go ahead and get out of here? We'll let these people go at, uh, an hour of content here. But, um, thank you all again for listening. Truly, truly, truly, truly, truly, truly, truly. Um, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Um, like I say, if you're hearing this, it means that you are supporting us, um, monetarily, which, which means a lot to us. For sure.

[01:00:49] Um, and, um, you know, I know it means a lot to the rest of the studio as well. Um, so make sure if, if you haven't already, make sure you give our other shows on the network a listen. I know that, um, they will, they will all appreciate the, the shine. Um, but other than that, um, we will, uh, we will tell you to take it easy and we'll see you next month.

[01:01:18] Later, y'all. Later, y'all.